Really timely Jennie. I am so appreciative of your work. I’ve recently rejoined the dating scene after a horrendous narcissist encounter last year, so I had my guard extra high as I embarked on a dating encounter with a new man. There were initially some strong green flags, but these were coupled with some question marks around incongruence between his words and very subtle behaviour, that I had my defences pretty high around. He did a good job of addressing some of these in a way that made me feel safe. But unfortunately things started to unravel from there, mainly up until and after we had sex.
In reading your list under number 2, I can tick off most of them as relates to him (ahh, hindsight). It helps to have them laid out so plainly, so thank you and I will use this as a guide going forward. I also appreciate your encouragement not to beat ourselves up. The lesson: ALWAYS listen to your intuition.
Ugh, I'm sorry things went this way . . . sometimes the signs are REALLY subtle, and it's ridiculous that you need to practically be a detective to catch them, but alas . . . I still believe there are a lot of true "needles" out there, but the fact is that for a lot of men on the apps, esp. over a certain age, there are reasons they're single . . .
The last two men I've dated have been sex ghosts with strikingly similar behavior patterns. It's so nice to know I'm not alone, and to read your insightful explanation! I love your point that "for a lot of men on the apps, esp. over a certain age, there are reasons they're single..." This idea has lurked in the back of my mind, but had not been so clear until reading your words. I haven't seriously implemented the burned haystack method, but this post, and this point, inspire me to do so. Thank you Jennie :-)
When you consider that almost 70% of women file for divorce, we need to be discriminating. We are datingmen who have been rejected by prior women for possible good reason(s) and that may take time to suss out. Jennie has pointed out that the older dating pool does have its share of men with personality disorders, narcissism, etc. I have met successful men (I am educated and successful) and in a short amount of time have figured out why they are single. As a widow, I am thinking a widower may be my best option.
So am I and thinking the same thing. I’ll bet there’s a dating app for widow/ers. I too am educated, so I am also thinking of checking Mensa to see if there are local events. I know there are dating sites for degreed professionals.
I would also like to point out that with the sex ghost guys, maybe delaying sex is to no great disadvantage. This guy ended up being VERY focused on himself despite lots of talk to the contrary. Far more satisfaction achieved by myself, tbh 😂
Agreed re sex positivity has been hijacked by the patriarchy and is now used as a weapon against women, i.e. prude-shaming women who don't have sex in the first few dates, or who want to feel safe within an emotionally supportive relationship before exploring more creative forms of sex.
I am sex positive and previously my mentality was why should I wait, if I want to have it and they do too. But I eventually figured out that if I wanted a long term relationship then delaying sex is a great screening tool. Also just in terms of, are they a decent person who appreciates just connecting over conversation and a shared activity? Means the sex when it happens is more likely to be more enjoyable, if they are willing to put effort into dates and getting to know you first.
Such great advice, especially the paragraph that mentions them entering your personal space way too early. Unfortunately so damn common, ick. Part of the whole male entitlement extravaganza.
Yes, for sure. It also just smacks of cluelessness in this day and age --- like you cannot open the internet or watch the news without learning about how it's not okay to just touch women wherever and whenever you want, but they still do it.
Hi Jennie, Once sex has started many women, certainly me, feel obliged to let them 'finish'. We are 'enduring' suffering again for his benefit, all the while thinking thoughts that are damaging to our mental health.
Remember the advice given to women getting married last century 'lie back and think of England." I would love you to cover a reminder to women that we can stop sex that's low quality at any time before it's 'finished' and perhaps how to navigate that as it could be dangerous...
I have noticed that many "sex ghosts" try to make the "3 date rule" a thing. I don't have a hard number rule about how many dates in to wait, but it is longer than that. I don't tell any date a particular number. I would tell them I am not going to move that fast and want to get to know them better before sex. The ghost types seem to quickly fade off after that.
I did have one man tell me that he essentially needed to "try out" sex before agreeing to commitment or monogamy, just in case we were sexually incompatible. I told him that didn't make sense to me, because part of my compatibility is having emotional connection and comfort/safety and that we can end things if we find we are in any way incompatible. We never went out again. I don't see that "ghosting" as a negative thing, because I told him I wasn't going to provide what he was looking for and he simply moved on.
Some men will make it to a few dates in before you learn this about them. That's just the dating process. It's disappointing and sad when they seemed so promising up to that point. But we still need to use a continued form of "BHDM" post-meeting, and exit when there are signs that they aren't going to match what we want or need.
Also, you can slow down sexual progression. E.g., don't have PIV sex right away. You can see how compatible you are with kissing, touching, and so on first. If they don't have patience with that and still try to rush you before you are ready, that is a potential "sex ghost" sign. If they don't seem to care about your pleasure or even comfort, also a bad sign. At this stage in my life, I am becoming more comfortable with resisting pressures from men to rush me into anything.
We also need to discuss WHY they ghost after sex. You would think it’s simply because “he just wants sex” and that’s that. While that is true, the reason behind this is USUALLY THAT HE HAS A MAIN GIRLFRIEND/ WIFE. I wish more women knew the truth about how extremely common this is. It’s easy to see just by joining the “are we dating the same guy“ Facebook groups. I also have personal experience with an ex boyfriend cheating on me with dozens of women. I found out only at the end, by looking at his phone. And it was clear he ghosted them right after sex. He enjoyed the chase. I also have a male friend who is a player and tells me how extremely common it is. So I feel that if more women were aware of this, they would be far less willing to have sex so early. We trick ourselves into thinking we are the only one they are sexually intimate with.
Overall I don’t think this aspect of dating (cheating) is discussed enough. More and more entitled men are juggling multiple women with a main partner in place. It’s a game to them, especially over the age of 45. My player friend said the exact same thing as Jennie: HOLD OFF ON THE SEX.
I never thought about this. Excellent point. I have avoided the rush for sex and then a possible future ghost, by going slow. I dated a really great man who was looking for jobs all over the US. I said that I would continue to date him (we were compatible in many ways) but sex was off the table because it would be too painful to get attached and have him take a job in another State (which happened). He said that it was fine and that he wanted to date me. Cuddling and closeness was sufficient as we were well along into our dating time together. Prior to him, I have asked my boyfriend to get tested for STDs BEFORE intimacy. IF a guy will do that for my safety, which he gladly did, then he is often a responsible and decent person. I am a widow so had been sheltered for about 30 years. Many people in the dating pool have had many partners and I am not going to risk it.
I’m NOT looking for long-term monogamy (LTM) and I’m still using BHDM to great advantage.
For context, I’m recently divorced and as of last week, I’m in my own home and it’s mine! 🥳.
I’ve gone from being a single married mother of 3 (2 actual kids and one grown man), to having 50:50 custody of the 2 children. The grown man now has to look after not only himself, but the kids 50% of the time too. 😁
I am in absolutely no rush to bring another man into my home or to start being a ‘wife’ to anyone. My kids deserve to have me to themselves when they are with me. My home has pleasant energy and I intend to keep it that way.
I’m well into my 40s, and emotionally intelligent. For the first time in my life, I’m in a place where I want to explore my sexuality and to really enjoy sex.
How I’m using BHDM…
I’ve crafted a great profile based on some of the example profiles. It’s funny and gives them a lot about me. It is designed to attract the right people and put off the wrong ones (IF they read it).
Under the section where I talk about what relationship type I want I wrote,
“Casual. My definition of casual means you’re into me and want to make me feel special (and vice versa). But we’re busy, so meeting infrequently. ENM considered.”
I’m not even swiping through the profiles myself. I’m just existing there with my own good profile and seeing what comes to me. As a woman in her 40s, I’m not getting many come my way. This was disheartening at first but I’ve become ok with it. Patience in dating is so important I think.
The ones who DO like my profile tend to fall into two categories:
1. Guys who clearly haven’t read my profile and fall into Jenny’s classic rhetorical patterns. Most have written nothing about themselves in their own profile. One of them answered all 3 hinge prompts simply with “….”
I ruthlessly B2B all of them immediately.
2. Two thoughtful people who were attracted by my profile and genuinely want to get to know me.
I’m bisexual but ultimately I think I’d rather be in a relationship with a man (against my better judgement).
I’m now talking to one man and one woman. Unsurprisingly, the woman is easier to talk to, but the man is doing OK.
With both people, I HAVE already talked about sex, but the conversations are different. I’m openly talking about boundaries and the true meaning of sex-positivity etc. I’m setting expectations and checking their page is the same as MY page. Both seem very respectful of my boundaries. I don’t feel pressured by either of them. I’m not pressuring. It’s just one date at a time.
In short, I think BHDM is adaptable for other relationship types. I suspect neither of my two people will turn into a LTR but as I said, that’s not what I want right now anyway. I’m happily enjoying myself and learning about my own dating style.
Note that I felt the need to provide a clear definition of ‘casual’. Too many guys were misaligned and ‘liking’ me for the wrong reasons. To them, casual meant ‘sex on demand’.
I love this! Reminds me very much of how I felt when I first got divorced, about 4 years ago.
I started out dating only women, and then when I shifted back to dating men, I quickly got into an LTR. It ended 6 months ago, and I've only been dating men, but they ones I've liked have been sex ghosts. I love your definition of casual sex - I could be up for that kind of arrangement too! But with the sex ghosts it was all on their terms, about their needs, and they were bad communicators. But I love the idea of being that clear in your profile. Honestly I've been pretty back and forth over the years in terms of what I'm looking for! I also love the pleasant energy in my home and having time and energy to enjoy my teenage daughters.
I recently reconnected with a woman I dated a couple years ago. It feels easier to move much more slowly with her than has been possible with men. I would love more of your thoughts about why you ultimately think you'd rather be in a relationship with a man. I've thought the same... something about feelings of safety, security, masculine energy... but maybe I'm unnecessarily limiting myself. I've never been in a relationship with a woman, have you?
Why do I ultimately think I’d rather be in LTR with a man?
Not sure…
My job means I know quite a bit about psychology and I’ve mused this often.
I’m also spiritual and believe that life keeps sending us lessons.
We attract familiar patterns because the brain likes the comfort of the known. We will repeat our patterns until we have suffered sufficiently that we become aware of them. Only then will we learn how to avoid a repeat.
My desire to be in a hetero-LTR might simply be my childhood conditioning and societal norms. My brain was wired a long time ago to think hetero is ‘normal’. From a brain plasticity perspective, new wiring has been laid down over the years, the old wiring never really goes away.
My attraction to women is very ‘curious’. I wonder what it would be like to do things I’ve never done. I’m attracted to the softness of women.
Women are ‘safer’ sexually. I’m fairly certain that if I invite a woman into my bedroom, she’d be excellent at body-positivity, communication and consent. She would probably also be generous with giving pleasure. I know I would be.
Men on the other hand are dangerous to invite into the bedroom. That was the quote from Woman of the Hour “which one of you will hurt me?” Even when they turn out to be ‘safe’, often the pleasure is very one-sided.
But it’s also not just about the bedroom.
Living with women would be far easier. When my female friends come over, they instinctively know how to help out. Although looking back on student days, I think this is learned behaviour and came with age and motherhood.
I suspect men like this may exist - I’ve personally just never been in a relationship with one of them. It feels like a fantasy right now. I’ve been done a lot of ‘re-wiring’ work in myself by calling to mind the good men from my past. I spent 16 years married to a narcissist, but before him I had loads of good male friends who I think were good men. I just never felt attraction to them because they weren’t the ‘pattern’.
I recently felt attraction for a man I think may represent the pattern. I’d call it limerence - fantasising about being in a relationship with him. I’ve had that several times in my life, always for men. I suspect it might actually come from my conditioned patterns though. A desire to pick someone similar and get it right this time (spoiler - it would probably not go right).
With men, I do feel attraction to their physical strength and stoicism. Their confidence is attractive (or is that arrogance and entitlement?). The pragmatism (but is this internalised misogyny - because women are very pragmatic). I have fantasies of him lifting the heavy things and doing DIY (my ex never actually did that stuff).
I actually believe in the male and female energies stuff that has been weaponised by the spiritual flow boys. It’s yin and yang. But in its true form yin and yang are in both genders and we can all nurture both sides. Living in capitalism, where ‘male’ energies are seen as superior, we women have had nurture the yang energies in ourselves. We’ve learned to make money and do the DIY. Our own yang energies are very strong at this point in history. This is a good thing - we needed them to be. But in many men their yang energy has become lazy, and their own yin energy was never developed at all. This is THEIR problem. The spiritual flow boys want us to be weak so that they can look strong in comparison. But in truth, they just need to get stronger in both areas and catch up.
I think I may only be drifting to women because they are generally more grown-up en-masse. The population of emotionally mature men is so tiny at this point in history.
Ultimately, it would just be nice to have a person who is my person. Someone I can call in an emergency. Someone who accepts me for who I am. Someone who is a good communicator, emotionally intelligent, intellectually stimulating and pulls their weight. Someone who lets me do the same for them. I guess the gender of that person doesn’t matter, but my conditioning and instinct is shouting ‘please be male’.
This is so interesting. I’ve been processing my feelings about dating women the last few weeks - seeing one who I dated a few years at, and re-reading “Sexual Fluidity” by Lisa Diamond. Interestingly, bisexual women’s attraction to men tends to grow over the course of their lives (from the women studied in the book, at least)
Thank you for sharing this. It was interesting hearing a well-thought out and unique dating plan. When you are ready for a relationship, you can still keep the "pleasant energy" that you have finally found for your life (congratulations). Many women in my age group own homes and do not want to live with a man again. We want a LTR but with a lot more separateness. There are many ways to have a relationship going forward that will have different boundaries than you had in your past. We all can keep our "pleasant energy" within a relationship with the right person.
I want to add something to the 'long term monogamy vs hookup' discussion:
Even if you, as a woman, are not interested in a long term thing or just want a hookup, to have said hookup with you still should look for a man who displays qualities that would also make him a good partner (even if maybe not for you, or not in the moment).
The rigorous Burned Haystack rules basically try to get rid of men who are disrespectful towards women, who treat them like objects, who are selfish etc.
Who would want to have a one night stand with someone like that?
Also, men who haven't had long term relationships or who aren't respectful towards women are usually clueless about basic female anatomy ;) (or don't give a shit about it)
I recently had an exchange with a guy who literally told me up front he wanted a "monogamous sexual relationship" before he asked me ANYTHING about myself, nor did he offer anything about himself - other than he wanted a sexual partner. I told him that I was gonna take a hard pass and suggested he try Tinder, which I believe is for hook-ups.
I think you bring up another red flag for a potential sex ghost or situationship: When they try to push you to get off the apps, or into "sexually monogamous" or "exclusive" agreement too quickly. I think it is because they want to rush you into feeling more secure, thus open to sex, early on.
Oh, his entire conversation with me was about how sexy I am and how attracted he was to me. He definitely wanted to "be on the same page" that this relationship was going to be about sex, although he did say "I want to get to know you first, of course." (Insert eye roll here)
Tinder is not for hookups; that was 2013. You can specify Long Term and all the bumble things. It’s pretty much mainstream and the most widely used in the world (i think..!)
One way for me to rule out a lot of men, if they do bring up sex is by telling them, I'm not on any birth control and sex will involve wearing a condom.
First I usually get the argument of how can I still get pregnant I'm 52 and shouldn't I be past all that.
Amazing how little men know about women's bodies. But that's a whole another discussion.
If I even bother with them after the above conversation. It's usually a hard pass for them and they leave, which shows their true colors.
This is a good strategy. I’m thinking of being upfront about having an IUD. There are guys that will get way too excited to ditch the condom when they know that. It is like they are willfully ignorant about sexual health. We are not monogamous good sir.
Firstly- prevention goes a long way. People don’t realize that they are thin slicing my bio too- I make oblique and metaphorical reference to being low body count, talk about the virtues of an LTR and i do not say “no hookups” or any obvious thing to be challenged. No suggestive pics, obviously. I do have one pic that has turned out to be a litmus test. .I’m playing the cello. There are people who can’t stop from making a lewd comment.
So then: 1. guys whose bios are TOO perfect- they’re looking for something long term, for extra syrup-please no hookups. How sad- You’re inundated with ONS requests there Basic Bob? Try again.
2. Guys who message in a way that is ultra polite and follows all the “ask her questions, don’t bring up sex” rules-leading me to be asked out. How can I say no; he’s done all the steps! But I’m still feeling completely unconnected to the guy as a result of the formula. They’re so good at it that there’s 100% plausible deniability. But you will feel a certain sales-like ick. Ditto- lots of non physical compliments when it’s being laid on rather thick.
3. Guys who ask more than once about what neighborhood you live in while planning or while on the date (strategizing for next date proximity to a place to go back to). Also this is homework to see if you live in a place where you can hook up or if you have kids or roommates.
4. Guys who react badly to “no option to extend”. I.e. my date for last night cancelled last minute when I made it clear that I had budgeted an hour for one drink after which I had dinner. Yay, didn’t even have to have the date to find out!
5. Sorry but guys who do walk in the park or coffee dates. They’re often low effort screening to see if you’re somebody they want to bang. They’re more interested in getting the visual than connecting over something more vibey than coffee. Also if they want to video chat first to see if you’re fatter than your pics. I know this is controversial bc many ppl like video chat and coffee but at least be aware to see if you feel like you’re being examined like a bluefin tuna at auction in Tokyo.
6. Guys who plan an elaborate or extended afternoon-into-evening 3rd or 4th date. They are on the 3rd or 4th date plan.
Incomplete list…..obviously follow all previously dispensed advice on BHDM too!
At first it seems perplexing that “sex ghosts” appear BOTH when sex is taken off the table AND when sex is had. But when you really think about it, when sex is the only focus there is no future with these males and they are truly just dating specters with no substance.
So agree about the time factor and not allowing breadcrumbing during that time.
I loved Jennie's review of the book "why does he do that" by Bancroft and have extracted the red flags he outlined there and in his other book "Should I Stay Or Should I Go" that he co-wrote with Patrissi.
HE SPEAKS DISRESPECTFULLY ABOUT HIS FORMER PARTNERS
HE IS DISRESPECTFUL TOWARD YOU
HE DOES FAVORS FOR YOU THAT YOU DON'T
WANT OR PUTS ON SUCH A
SHOW OF GENEROSITY THAT IT MAKES YOU UNCOMFORTABLE
HE IS CONTROLLING
HE IS POSSESSIVE
NOTHING IS EVER HIS FAULT
IS SELF-CENTERED
ABUSES DRUGS OR ALCOHOL
HE PRESSURES YOU FOR SEX
HE GETS SERIOUS TOO QUICKLY ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP
SHE HAS DOUBLE STANDARDS
HE INTIMIDATES YOU WHEN HE'S ANGRY
HE HAS NEGATIVE ATTITUDES TOWARD WOMEN
HE TREATS YOU DIFFERENTLY AROUND OTHER PEOPLE.
OHE APPEARS TO BE ATTRACTED TO VULNERABILITY
Source "Why Does He Do That" by Bancroft
SELF-INVOLVEMENT AND SELF-CENTEREDNESS
MAKING LOTS OF EXCUSES
MAKING LOTS OF PROMISES
HAVING TO HAVE HIS OWN WAY
JEALOUSY AND POSSESSIVENESS
HE ALWAYS HAS TO HAVE A DRINK,A TOKE
OR ASNORT
PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO WARN YOU ABOUT HIM
HE PRESSURES YOU
HE IS SECRETIVE
Source "Should I stay or should I go" by Patrissi and Bancroft
It seems really obvious to me that delaying sex with a new man has way more benefits than downsides. It might be because I'm older, but I just don't find the thought of sex very appealing with a man I don't know if I can trust. And in the meanwhile that's what vibrators are for
Jennie! Knowing you, you’ll be horrified to know you left a set parenthesis I closed! 🤣🤣🤣 (We don’t care!!❤️) It’s under the second key feature of Burned Haystack. Much love and thanks for all you do!!! 💪💪💪😎
Really timely Jennie. I am so appreciative of your work. I’ve recently rejoined the dating scene after a horrendous narcissist encounter last year, so I had my guard extra high as I embarked on a dating encounter with a new man. There were initially some strong green flags, but these were coupled with some question marks around incongruence between his words and very subtle behaviour, that I had my defences pretty high around. He did a good job of addressing some of these in a way that made me feel safe. But unfortunately things started to unravel from there, mainly up until and after we had sex.
In reading your list under number 2, I can tick off most of them as relates to him (ahh, hindsight). It helps to have them laid out so plainly, so thank you and I will use this as a guide going forward. I also appreciate your encouragement not to beat ourselves up. The lesson: ALWAYS listen to your intuition.
Ugh, I'm sorry things went this way . . . sometimes the signs are REALLY subtle, and it's ridiculous that you need to practically be a detective to catch them, but alas . . . I still believe there are a lot of true "needles" out there, but the fact is that for a lot of men on the apps, esp. over a certain age, there are reasons they're single . . .
The last two men I've dated have been sex ghosts with strikingly similar behavior patterns. It's so nice to know I'm not alone, and to read your insightful explanation! I love your point that "for a lot of men on the apps, esp. over a certain age, there are reasons they're single..." This idea has lurked in the back of my mind, but had not been so clear until reading your words. I haven't seriously implemented the burned haystack method, but this post, and this point, inspire me to do so. Thank you Jennie :-)
When you consider that almost 70% of women file for divorce, we need to be discriminating. We are datingmen who have been rejected by prior women for possible good reason(s) and that may take time to suss out. Jennie has pointed out that the older dating pool does have its share of men with personality disorders, narcissism, etc. I have met successful men (I am educated and successful) and in a short amount of time have figured out why they are single. As a widow, I am thinking a widower may be my best option.
So am I and thinking the same thing. I’ll bet there’s a dating app for widow/ers. I too am educated, so I am also thinking of checking Mensa to see if there are local events. I know there are dating sites for degreed professionals.
You are literally doing the greatest ever service to womenfolk, thank you thank you 🙏🏼
I would also like to point out that with the sex ghost guys, maybe delaying sex is to no great disadvantage. This guy ended up being VERY focused on himself despite lots of talk to the contrary. Far more satisfaction achieved by myself, tbh 😂
Yes, there is a STRONG correlation between sex ghosts and being bad at sex, lol.
Agreed re sex positivity has been hijacked by the patriarchy and is now used as a weapon against women, i.e. prude-shaming women who don't have sex in the first few dates, or who want to feel safe within an emotionally supportive relationship before exploring more creative forms of sex.
I am sex positive and previously my mentality was why should I wait, if I want to have it and they do too. But I eventually figured out that if I wanted a long term relationship then delaying sex is a great screening tool. Also just in terms of, are they a decent person who appreciates just connecting over conversation and a shared activity? Means the sex when it happens is more likely to be more enjoyable, if they are willing to put effort into dates and getting to know you first.
Such great advice, especially the paragraph that mentions them entering your personal space way too early. Unfortunately so damn common, ick. Part of the whole male entitlement extravaganza.
Yes, for sure. It also just smacks of cluelessness in this day and age --- like you cannot open the internet or watch the news without learning about how it's not okay to just touch women wherever and whenever you want, but they still do it.
Hi Jennie, Once sex has started many women, certainly me, feel obliged to let them 'finish'. We are 'enduring' suffering again for his benefit, all the while thinking thoughts that are damaging to our mental health.
Remember the advice given to women getting married last century 'lie back and think of England." I would love you to cover a reminder to women that we can stop sex that's low quality at any time before it's 'finished' and perhaps how to navigate that as it could be dangerous...
Thank you for empowering me to change my life 🦉.
I have noticed that many "sex ghosts" try to make the "3 date rule" a thing. I don't have a hard number rule about how many dates in to wait, but it is longer than that. I don't tell any date a particular number. I would tell them I am not going to move that fast and want to get to know them better before sex. The ghost types seem to quickly fade off after that.
I did have one man tell me that he essentially needed to "try out" sex before agreeing to commitment or monogamy, just in case we were sexually incompatible. I told him that didn't make sense to me, because part of my compatibility is having emotional connection and comfort/safety and that we can end things if we find we are in any way incompatible. We never went out again. I don't see that "ghosting" as a negative thing, because I told him I wasn't going to provide what he was looking for and he simply moved on.
Some men will make it to a few dates in before you learn this about them. That's just the dating process. It's disappointing and sad when they seemed so promising up to that point. But we still need to use a continued form of "BHDM" post-meeting, and exit when there are signs that they aren't going to match what we want or need.
Also, you can slow down sexual progression. E.g., don't have PIV sex right away. You can see how compatible you are with kissing, touching, and so on first. If they don't have patience with that and still try to rush you before you are ready, that is a potential "sex ghost" sign. If they don't seem to care about your pleasure or even comfort, also a bad sign. At this stage in my life, I am becoming more comfortable with resisting pressures from men to rush me into anything.
"If they don't seem to care about your pleasure or even comfort, also a bad sign."
Absolutely perfectly put. This immediately resonated as a way to screen out sex that was likely to be disappointing.
We also need to discuss WHY they ghost after sex. You would think it’s simply because “he just wants sex” and that’s that. While that is true, the reason behind this is USUALLY THAT HE HAS A MAIN GIRLFRIEND/ WIFE. I wish more women knew the truth about how extremely common this is. It’s easy to see just by joining the “are we dating the same guy“ Facebook groups. I also have personal experience with an ex boyfriend cheating on me with dozens of women. I found out only at the end, by looking at his phone. And it was clear he ghosted them right after sex. He enjoyed the chase. I also have a male friend who is a player and tells me how extremely common it is. So I feel that if more women were aware of this, they would be far less willing to have sex so early. We trick ourselves into thinking we are the only one they are sexually intimate with.
Overall I don’t think this aspect of dating (cheating) is discussed enough. More and more entitled men are juggling multiple women with a main partner in place. It’s a game to them, especially over the age of 45. My player friend said the exact same thing as Jennie: HOLD OFF ON THE SEX.
I never thought about this. Excellent point. I have avoided the rush for sex and then a possible future ghost, by going slow. I dated a really great man who was looking for jobs all over the US. I said that I would continue to date him (we were compatible in many ways) but sex was off the table because it would be too painful to get attached and have him take a job in another State (which happened). He said that it was fine and that he wanted to date me. Cuddling and closeness was sufficient as we were well along into our dating time together. Prior to him, I have asked my boyfriend to get tested for STDs BEFORE intimacy. IF a guy will do that for my safety, which he gladly did, then he is often a responsible and decent person. I am a widow so had been sheltered for about 30 years. Many people in the dating pool have had many partners and I am not going to risk it.
Great article.
Different spin here.
I’m NOT looking for long-term monogamy (LTM) and I’m still using BHDM to great advantage.
For context, I’m recently divorced and as of last week, I’m in my own home and it’s mine! 🥳.
I’ve gone from being a single married mother of 3 (2 actual kids and one grown man), to having 50:50 custody of the 2 children. The grown man now has to look after not only himself, but the kids 50% of the time too. 😁
I am in absolutely no rush to bring another man into my home or to start being a ‘wife’ to anyone. My kids deserve to have me to themselves when they are with me. My home has pleasant energy and I intend to keep it that way.
I’m well into my 40s, and emotionally intelligent. For the first time in my life, I’m in a place where I want to explore my sexuality and to really enjoy sex.
How I’m using BHDM…
I’ve crafted a great profile based on some of the example profiles. It’s funny and gives them a lot about me. It is designed to attract the right people and put off the wrong ones (IF they read it).
Under the section where I talk about what relationship type I want I wrote,
“Casual. My definition of casual means you’re into me and want to make me feel special (and vice versa). But we’re busy, so meeting infrequently. ENM considered.”
I’m not even swiping through the profiles myself. I’m just existing there with my own good profile and seeing what comes to me. As a woman in her 40s, I’m not getting many come my way. This was disheartening at first but I’ve become ok with it. Patience in dating is so important I think.
The ones who DO like my profile tend to fall into two categories:
1. Guys who clearly haven’t read my profile and fall into Jenny’s classic rhetorical patterns. Most have written nothing about themselves in their own profile. One of them answered all 3 hinge prompts simply with “….”
I ruthlessly B2B all of them immediately.
2. Two thoughtful people who were attracted by my profile and genuinely want to get to know me.
I’m bisexual but ultimately I think I’d rather be in a relationship with a man (against my better judgement).
I’m now talking to one man and one woman. Unsurprisingly, the woman is easier to talk to, but the man is doing OK.
With both people, I HAVE already talked about sex, but the conversations are different. I’m openly talking about boundaries and the true meaning of sex-positivity etc. I’m setting expectations and checking their page is the same as MY page. Both seem very respectful of my boundaries. I don’t feel pressured by either of them. I’m not pressuring. It’s just one date at a time.
In short, I think BHDM is adaptable for other relationship types. I suspect neither of my two people will turn into a LTR but as I said, that’s not what I want right now anyway. I’m happily enjoying myself and learning about my own dating style.
Note that I felt the need to provide a clear definition of ‘casual’. Too many guys were misaligned and ‘liking’ me for the wrong reasons. To them, casual meant ‘sex on demand’.
I love this! Reminds me very much of how I felt when I first got divorced, about 4 years ago.
I started out dating only women, and then when I shifted back to dating men, I quickly got into an LTR. It ended 6 months ago, and I've only been dating men, but they ones I've liked have been sex ghosts. I love your definition of casual sex - I could be up for that kind of arrangement too! But with the sex ghosts it was all on their terms, about their needs, and they were bad communicators. But I love the idea of being that clear in your profile. Honestly I've been pretty back and forth over the years in terms of what I'm looking for! I also love the pleasant energy in my home and having time and energy to enjoy my teenage daughters.
I recently reconnected with a woman I dated a couple years ago. It feels easier to move much more slowly with her than has been possible with men. I would love more of your thoughts about why you ultimately think you'd rather be in a relationship with a man. I've thought the same... something about feelings of safety, security, masculine energy... but maybe I'm unnecessarily limiting myself. I've never been in a relationship with a woman, have you?
Such an interesting story and stance! You seem to know yourself and what you need very well ❤️
Thank you for sharing!
Why do I ultimately think I’d rather be in LTR with a man?
Not sure…
My job means I know quite a bit about psychology and I’ve mused this often.
I’m also spiritual and believe that life keeps sending us lessons.
We attract familiar patterns because the brain likes the comfort of the known. We will repeat our patterns until we have suffered sufficiently that we become aware of them. Only then will we learn how to avoid a repeat.
My desire to be in a hetero-LTR might simply be my childhood conditioning and societal norms. My brain was wired a long time ago to think hetero is ‘normal’. From a brain plasticity perspective, new wiring has been laid down over the years, the old wiring never really goes away.
My attraction to women is very ‘curious’. I wonder what it would be like to do things I’ve never done. I’m attracted to the softness of women.
Women are ‘safer’ sexually. I’m fairly certain that if I invite a woman into my bedroom, she’d be excellent at body-positivity, communication and consent. She would probably also be generous with giving pleasure. I know I would be.
Men on the other hand are dangerous to invite into the bedroom. That was the quote from Woman of the Hour “which one of you will hurt me?” Even when they turn out to be ‘safe’, often the pleasure is very one-sided.
But it’s also not just about the bedroom.
Living with women would be far easier. When my female friends come over, they instinctively know how to help out. Although looking back on student days, I think this is learned behaviour and came with age and motherhood.
I suspect men like this may exist - I’ve personally just never been in a relationship with one of them. It feels like a fantasy right now. I’ve been done a lot of ‘re-wiring’ work in myself by calling to mind the good men from my past. I spent 16 years married to a narcissist, but before him I had loads of good male friends who I think were good men. I just never felt attraction to them because they weren’t the ‘pattern’.
I recently felt attraction for a man I think may represent the pattern. I’d call it limerence - fantasising about being in a relationship with him. I’ve had that several times in my life, always for men. I suspect it might actually come from my conditioned patterns though. A desire to pick someone similar and get it right this time (spoiler - it would probably not go right).
With men, I do feel attraction to their physical strength and stoicism. Their confidence is attractive (or is that arrogance and entitlement?). The pragmatism (but is this internalised misogyny - because women are very pragmatic). I have fantasies of him lifting the heavy things and doing DIY (my ex never actually did that stuff).
I actually believe in the male and female energies stuff that has been weaponised by the spiritual flow boys. It’s yin and yang. But in its true form yin and yang are in both genders and we can all nurture both sides. Living in capitalism, where ‘male’ energies are seen as superior, we women have had nurture the yang energies in ourselves. We’ve learned to make money and do the DIY. Our own yang energies are very strong at this point in history. This is a good thing - we needed them to be. But in many men their yang energy has become lazy, and their own yin energy was never developed at all. This is THEIR problem. The spiritual flow boys want us to be weak so that they can look strong in comparison. But in truth, they just need to get stronger in both areas and catch up.
I think I may only be drifting to women because they are generally more grown-up en-masse. The population of emotionally mature men is so tiny at this point in history.
Ultimately, it would just be nice to have a person who is my person. Someone I can call in an emergency. Someone who accepts me for who I am. Someone who is a good communicator, emotionally intelligent, intellectually stimulating and pulls their weight. Someone who lets me do the same for them. I guess the gender of that person doesn’t matter, but my conditioning and instinct is shouting ‘please be male’.
This is so interesting. I’ve been processing my feelings about dating women the last few weeks - seeing one who I dated a few years at, and re-reading “Sexual Fluidity” by Lisa Diamond. Interestingly, bisexual women’s attraction to men tends to grow over the course of their lives (from the women studied in the book, at least)
Your thoughts are very helpful! Thank you!
Thank you for sharing this. It was interesting hearing a well-thought out and unique dating plan. When you are ready for a relationship, you can still keep the "pleasant energy" that you have finally found for your life (congratulations). Many women in my age group own homes and do not want to live with a man again. We want a LTR but with a lot more separateness. There are many ways to have a relationship going forward that will have different boundaries than you had in your past. We all can keep our "pleasant energy" within a relationship with the right person.
That is awesome! One might not be looking for something serious but it doesn’t mean respect is optional.
I want to add something to the 'long term monogamy vs hookup' discussion:
Even if you, as a woman, are not interested in a long term thing or just want a hookup, to have said hookup with you still should look for a man who displays qualities that would also make him a good partner (even if maybe not for you, or not in the moment).
The rigorous Burned Haystack rules basically try to get rid of men who are disrespectful towards women, who treat them like objects, who are selfish etc.
Who would want to have a one night stand with someone like that?
Also, men who haven't had long term relationships or who aren't respectful towards women are usually clueless about basic female anatomy ;) (or don't give a shit about it)
I recently had an exchange with a guy who literally told me up front he wanted a "monogamous sexual relationship" before he asked me ANYTHING about myself, nor did he offer anything about himself - other than he wanted a sexual partner. I told him that I was gonna take a hard pass and suggested he try Tinder, which I believe is for hook-ups.
I think you bring up another red flag for a potential sex ghost or situationship: When they try to push you to get off the apps, or into "sexually monogamous" or "exclusive" agreement too quickly. I think it is because they want to rush you into feeling more secure, thus open to sex, early on.
Oh, his entire conversation with me was about how sexy I am and how attracted he was to me. He definitely wanted to "be on the same page" that this relationship was going to be about sex, although he did say "I want to get to know you first, of course." (Insert eye roll here)
Tinder is not for hookups; that was 2013. You can specify Long Term and all the bumble things. It’s pretty much mainstream and the most widely used in the world (i think..!)
One way for me to rule out a lot of men, if they do bring up sex is by telling them, I'm not on any birth control and sex will involve wearing a condom.
First I usually get the argument of how can I still get pregnant I'm 52 and shouldn't I be past all that.
Amazing how little men know about women's bodies. But that's a whole another discussion.
If I even bother with them after the above conversation. It's usually a hard pass for them and they leave, which shows their true colors.
This is a good strategy. I’m thinking of being upfront about having an IUD. There are guys that will get way too excited to ditch the condom when they know that. It is like they are willfully ignorant about sexual health. We are not monogamous good sir.
Firstly- prevention goes a long way. People don’t realize that they are thin slicing my bio too- I make oblique and metaphorical reference to being low body count, talk about the virtues of an LTR and i do not say “no hookups” or any obvious thing to be challenged. No suggestive pics, obviously. I do have one pic that has turned out to be a litmus test. .I’m playing the cello. There are people who can’t stop from making a lewd comment.
So then: 1. guys whose bios are TOO perfect- they’re looking for something long term, for extra syrup-please no hookups. How sad- You’re inundated with ONS requests there Basic Bob? Try again.
2. Guys who message in a way that is ultra polite and follows all the “ask her questions, don’t bring up sex” rules-leading me to be asked out. How can I say no; he’s done all the steps! But I’m still feeling completely unconnected to the guy as a result of the formula. They’re so good at it that there’s 100% plausible deniability. But you will feel a certain sales-like ick. Ditto- lots of non physical compliments when it’s being laid on rather thick.
3. Guys who ask more than once about what neighborhood you live in while planning or while on the date (strategizing for next date proximity to a place to go back to). Also this is homework to see if you live in a place where you can hook up or if you have kids or roommates.
4. Guys who react badly to “no option to extend”. I.e. my date for last night cancelled last minute when I made it clear that I had budgeted an hour for one drink after which I had dinner. Yay, didn’t even have to have the date to find out!
5. Sorry but guys who do walk in the park or coffee dates. They’re often low effort screening to see if you’re somebody they want to bang. They’re more interested in getting the visual than connecting over something more vibey than coffee. Also if they want to video chat first to see if you’re fatter than your pics. I know this is controversial bc many ppl like video chat and coffee but at least be aware to see if you feel like you’re being examined like a bluefin tuna at auction in Tokyo.
6. Guys who plan an elaborate or extended afternoon-into-evening 3rd or 4th date. They are on the 3rd or 4th date plan.
Incomplete list…..obviously follow all previously dispensed advice on BHDM too!
This is excellent insight and 100% spot on.
At first it seems perplexing that “sex ghosts” appear BOTH when sex is taken off the table AND when sex is had. But when you really think about it, when sex is the only focus there is no future with these males and they are truly just dating specters with no substance.
So agree about the time factor and not allowing breadcrumbing during that time.
I loved Jennie's review of the book "why does he do that" by Bancroft and have extracted the red flags he outlined there and in his other book "Should I Stay Or Should I Go" that he co-wrote with Patrissi.
HE SPEAKS DISRESPECTFULLY ABOUT HIS FORMER PARTNERS
HE IS DISRESPECTFUL TOWARD YOU
HE DOES FAVORS FOR YOU THAT YOU DON'T
WANT OR PUTS ON SUCH A
SHOW OF GENEROSITY THAT IT MAKES YOU UNCOMFORTABLE
HE IS CONTROLLING
HE IS POSSESSIVE
NOTHING IS EVER HIS FAULT
IS SELF-CENTERED
ABUSES DRUGS OR ALCOHOL
HE PRESSURES YOU FOR SEX
HE GETS SERIOUS TOO QUICKLY ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP
SHE HAS DOUBLE STANDARDS
HE INTIMIDATES YOU WHEN HE'S ANGRY
HE HAS NEGATIVE ATTITUDES TOWARD WOMEN
HE TREATS YOU DIFFERENTLY AROUND OTHER PEOPLE.
OHE APPEARS TO BE ATTRACTED TO VULNERABILITY
Source "Why Does He Do That" by Bancroft
SELF-INVOLVEMENT AND SELF-CENTEREDNESS
MAKING LOTS OF EXCUSES
MAKING LOTS OF PROMISES
HAVING TO HAVE HIS OWN WAY
JEALOUSY AND POSSESSIVENESS
HE ALWAYS HAS TO HAVE A DRINK,A TOKE
OR ASNORT
PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO WARN YOU ABOUT HIM
HE PRESSURES YOU
HE IS SECRETIVE
Source "Should I stay or should I go" by Patrissi and Bancroft
Sorry that didn't paste very well from the little jpeg I have created to post on "are we dating the same guy" page.
Thank you so so much for these amazing points Ani! (from another Ani 🥰❤️)
Hi Ani 😊👋
Hi Ani! 🥰🥰🥰
Given the election results…. Time to go 4B across the country??
It seems really obvious to me that delaying sex with a new man has way more benefits than downsides. It might be because I'm older, but I just don't find the thought of sex very appealing with a man I don't know if I can trust. And in the meanwhile that's what vibrators are for
Jennie! Knowing you, you’ll be horrified to know you left a set parenthesis I closed! 🤣🤣🤣 (We don’t care!!❤️) It’s under the second key feature of Burned Haystack. Much love and thanks for all you do!!! 💪💪💪😎
Auto corrected! A set of parentheses unclosed! 🙄