This reminds me of the "test" I learned about many years ago, one that made the rounds through online relationship discourse, etc., and was repeatedly demonstrated through many recorded real-life examples. The test is meant to gauge whether or not a man sees their wife or girlfriend as a whole, multifaceted individual rather than a caretaker/plaything/extension of themselves. All one needs to do is ask the man what it is about his partner he loves and admires.
Unsurprisingly, the answers overwhelmingly land in the "stuff she does for ME" category. The way she makes him feel, the services she provides, the emotional labour she takes on, how pretty she is, etc. Rarely does he mention anything about her personality, skills, talents, depth, etc.
And this will tell you everything you need to know about the relationship.
It is validating to hear that this a real analytical tool. Before I ended my marriage, I read the ‘love-letter’ that he had written me (in our marriage ceremony 5 years earlier we sealed away pre-written letters to read if we ever hit a rocky patch), and his whole letter was about what I did for HIM. It did not make me reconsider and see the light haha. But by the same token, I probably should have recognised the warning sign it was when I was writing my letter the morning of, and was asking my bridesmaids (my friend, sister, and his sister) what they liked about him. 😅
Literally asked my friend and her then new-boyfriend what they liked about each other (they hadn't said "I love you" to each other yet) when she introduced me to him. She went on and on about who he is as a person. He said, "She's fine (as in pretty)."
They are still together, and she's happy with him, but ughhhhhhh
Thanks Jennie, absolutely brilliant analysis! I think when women say things like “but men aren’t putting that much thought into this” they are operating from the perspective that we are chiding men for the way they speak, when what we’re actually doing is evaluating them, something we haven’t really been taught to do (until now!).
Men with meat: "I have proven my worth as a male provider. Here's what *I* bring to the (literal) table" (probably only cooks at most once per week, and it's only one part of that meal)
Yes! It's trusting yourself to recognize and act upon the fact that, if the tip of the iceberg gives "an ick," the rest of the iceberg below is absolutely going to be terrible. So you just immediately pass on it.
When women say “men aren’t putting that much thought into this” THOSE women are indicting the men for not making any effort when the men should be. Do those same men fret over their resumes/CVs and carefully write and edit them — or pay an expert to do so? Of course they do. So men should expend at least that much time and energy on their dating profile and initial conversations with women IF they are serious about finding a long-term partnership. If they don’t or are the “just ask” guys, they are not serious about building relationships and are looking for hook-ups.
I meant the women who take issue with us being “too hard” on men, who say we’re expecting too much. Yes, it’s definitely patronizing toward men, who are capable of doing a lot in other spheres! But it’s surprising how many actually extend this attitude to other areas of their lives, too. As a business owner, I was often shocked when looking at CVs, and there was definitely a gender divide when it came to professionalism/effort applied.
Correct, I wasn’t arguing with you! The women who excuse men’s poor behavior/attitudes/lack of effort (internalized misogyny) don’t even realize that they, too, are being hard on men in this example by pointing out lack of effort. So they are hypocritical on top of carrying water for the patriarchy. 😂
You know some (many??) dudes just get their wives to write their resumes. I admit that I did it a long time ago, but I needed the husband to get a job. 😂
Def the Sun heuristic - but I'd go beyond 'looking for trad wife'. I notice this pattern in men a LOT that I just identify as IMMATURITY. Men want women who will make their lives easier and more enjoyable. Like a 4 year old.
"I want to play Mommy! Watch me do this Mommy! I want to be silly and laugh with you Mommy! I want a hug Mommy!" But also, Moms need to handle all the labor and responsibilities - cook, clean, plan, buy clothes, provide shelter, meet all needs for the child. The child is not even aware of Mom's labor much less has to ask for it.
100% agree, they don't see women as autonomous humans, just 'free vending machines of benefits and services' - 'I like the things I receive out of this thing.' Punch in code, receive fun and laughter. Punch in another code, receive kindness and caring. It is one directional. Even when they offer something in return (Look! I put coins in you!) what is expected in return? Praise and gratitude! The things men like about the vending machine has nothing to do with the marveling at the mechanics of the machine, it has to do with what they get OUT of the machine. What the machine provides. Without any expectation in return.
If the pattern had a name I'd call it "I want a playmate! (But also be my mommy)."
Many men want to a woman who makes them FEEL GOOD. "She is nice to ME. She is kind to ME. She likes to laugh and have fun with ME. She gives affection to ME. She cheers for me. She has sex with ME." When a woman no longer makes them feel these enjoyable feelings, they lose interest and want a different woman.
There isn't something specific (most) men value and appreciate about any singular woman as a unique human individual. They are chasing the experience of delightful feelings they enjoy FROM a woman. Who she is and what makes her uniquely her is not relevant. You can find kind, nice, and fun in any woman who comes next when the current one stops dispensing only kind, nice and fun.
Men want women who provide them feelings they enjoy, without demands or needs in return.
They want the Eternal Honeymoon phase. All fun. All bliss. All laughter. All sparky chemistry and sex. Then years into marriage "Where's the fun, carefree, sexy girl I met long ago? What happened? Where did she go?"
She's been making every freaking meal for years. She's been cleaning the house, hosting the holidays, managing the kids, working her own full time job, doing the laundry, planning the family vacations, filling out thousands of forms for doctors, schools, soccer camps, dispensing unreciprocated orgasms when she's dead tired, etc. All while you sit around complaining about her nagging, asking where something is in the fridge, and whining about 'When's the last time we were intimate?'
And THIS pattern is not JUST conservative men looking for trad wives. THIS is 4 year old mentality - everything FOR 'me'. Profound, self-centered immaturity. Not partnership. Not reciprocity. Not shared responsibility, investment, labor.
THIS is SO many men left, right, center, young, old, educated, drop-outs, rich, broke, religious, atheists, of every race and in every place.
They don't seek partnership and connection with a unique human being. It's vending machines of benefits and services. They want what they RECEIVE from the experience.
This reminds me of a dynamic that at the time I didn’t have words for, but knew there was something wrong with. I dated a man a few years ago (we were both in our late 40s at the time), who wore the following claim like a badge of honor, “I would never cheat…because I couldn’t live with the guilt.” I would ask, “Not because it would be hurtful to the person you’re cheating on?” 🤔
I would like to say thank you for this post. I wish that I would have had this knowledge a few years ago when I started on the apps. Boy, did I waste time believing and not truly understanding the words presented to me. There were too many me, me, me guys. Now, I am so lucky to have found my needle. He's kind, consistent, caring, loves my dog, and did I say consistent?
To echo Chrystal @mizweirdo . . .As a therapist, I often ask male clients who have female partners what they love and respect about them. Very often, their answers focus on what she does for him, how she makes him feel, the roles she plays. Plus, of course, looks. Even when pushed. It's definitely revelatory!
Sometimes. Those who are ready to take full accountability for their part in their dynamics generally will. Pointing this out can be a lightbulb moment for them. The rest? It's a crapshoot. In those cases, I do what I can to encourage and facilitate reflection, yet there's only so much I can do. In the case of those who cannot or will not reflect, my hope is that at the very least, I'm planting a seed that might someday grow. My first supervisor told me "never work harder than them in the session. Let them do the work." That certainly applies here!
I've learned how to weed out the ones who aren't ready or able to reflect. If they're only looking for affirmation, they'll need to look elsewhere. I've also learned that sometimes people are ready to reflect in certain areas, and not yet ready and/or able to reflect in others. Exploring that with compassion and curiosity is important. And, a big part of my job is to hold up a mirror to the difficult things, too. Compassionate straight talk often does the trick.
This reminds me of when I matched with a guy a month or two ago on Facebook dating. I'm a writer. He pressed me on this and I told him I've got six published books under my belt. His response — and I am not making this up — was, "I bet I could write a book! I keep notes on things. I kept a journal when I was a teenager. I have had many experiences" and OH MY GAWD, I just wanted to smack him. Obviously that was a big B2B.
"Hi, Sun! That's so cool that you use nuclear fusion to heat the entire solar system. I bet I could also use nuclear fusion to heat the entire solar system. I keep notes on things. I have had many experiences."
I have also used similar rhetorical analysis techniques when conducting InfoSec/compliance investigations: it’s incredible how much the “choice” of words that a person uses can reveal about their inner world.
As such, I also have a related tip that might be valuable: allow the subject of your observation plenty of opportunity early on to show themselves for who they are (Brooke Teagarden has a sad but hilarious way of doing so!). Silence is a really powerful tool as well, as people under scrutiny usually want to fill those silences.
Brooke is BRUTAL. It is so funny to see how she unravels them. She aims her poison pen at conservative men and delivers some great history lessons in the process.
After reading this, I feel like the curtains have been opened in a dark room and the sun came streaming in! Jennie, you make this information so accessible to us! I am working my way back onto the apps after about three years and I am waiting the arrival of your book to finalize my profile and go "live". In the meantime, I am practicing BHDM on the daily profiles that Bumble will show me with my "snoozed" profile. Thank you for all you do.
OMG I could have used this last fall when I started dating someone. He would say what seemed like the right things - but I would not feel quite as great about them later. Taken in this context, every supposedly nice thing was always with him as the focus - but it was so subtle you can’t quite pinpoint what the problem was. I’m not dating him anymore - but this would have saved me a couple months of back and forth frustration 🙄
I am learning so much from reading all the posts on the Facebook page, the articles on Substack and watching the Instagram reels. It has opened up an area of my life that needed to be healed. I am not dating yet, but have so much hope that when I do, I will be much more discerning and not end up in another toxic relationship. Thank you for being brave enough to share everything with so many women Jenny.
This is an excellent analogy. We truly would be wise to consider ourselves from the perspective of the Sun. Taking it further, when confronted with a self-confident woman, many ‘red flag’ men immediately try to eclipse her! Would be growth for all to realize in that scenario men are but a moon orbiting around our Sun — eclipses are rare.
Block them from our own orbit. Also, as the Sun, extra easy to burn them! 😉
Love this analysis, thank you for so clearly stating why we get the ick feeling just before blocking.
Too many profiles look like:
“Looking for a good(or kind), attractive woman who stays in shape. You will like to have a good time and enjoy intimacy often. Must know how to compromise.”
I read- be pretty and stay in shape, I’ll be measuring you against 16 year old photo shopped models. Be good, cook, clean and entertain me without any expectations or complaining. Sex will be on demand. If there’s a disagreement, you’ll be kind and bend to my wishes.
When I read "I'm looking for..." I imagine cranky faced men pushing carts through the supermarket calling out for groceries to jump into their carts. "I'm looking for triscuits, chipotle mustard, one pound of sliced ham."
This reminds me of the "test" I learned about many years ago, one that made the rounds through online relationship discourse, etc., and was repeatedly demonstrated through many recorded real-life examples. The test is meant to gauge whether or not a man sees their wife or girlfriend as a whole, multifaceted individual rather than a caretaker/plaything/extension of themselves. All one needs to do is ask the man what it is about his partner he loves and admires.
Unsurprisingly, the answers overwhelmingly land in the "stuff she does for ME" category. The way she makes him feel, the services she provides, the emotional labour she takes on, how pretty she is, etc. Rarely does he mention anything about her personality, skills, talents, depth, etc.
And this will tell you everything you need to know about the relationship.
It is validating to hear that this a real analytical tool. Before I ended my marriage, I read the ‘love-letter’ that he had written me (in our marriage ceremony 5 years earlier we sealed away pre-written letters to read if we ever hit a rocky patch), and his whole letter was about what I did for HIM. It did not make me reconsider and see the light haha. But by the same token, I probably should have recognised the warning sign it was when I was writing my letter the morning of, and was asking my bridesmaids (my friend, sister, and his sister) what they liked about him. 😅
Oh, I wanted to hear what they liked about him! We need part 2
Literally asked my friend and her then new-boyfriend what they liked about each other (they hadn't said "I love you" to each other yet) when she introduced me to him. She went on and on about who he is as a person. He said, "She's fine (as in pretty)."
They are still together, and she's happy with him, but ughhhhhhh
Exactly this. You are spot on. I commented on it in the context of my work as a therapist.
Thanks Jennie, absolutely brilliant analysis! I think when women say things like “but men aren’t putting that much thought into this” they are operating from the perspective that we are chiding men for the way they speak, when what we’re actually doing is evaluating them, something we haven’t really been taught to do (until now!).
And, we don't want men who don't put thought into their dating profile.
I once shared a profile of a guy who mostly posted photos of meat he had BBQed.
A male aquaintence said, "Maybe he didn't realize his profile would be scrutinized"
Whut? What did he think his profile was for?
It's astounding how many men don't understand the assignment.
All the fish pics and hot rod pics are men auditioning for other men. Completely missing the assignment.
I have never understood the “Here’s the meat I barbecued” photos. I see a lot of them, too.
Men with meat: "I have proven my worth as a male provider. Here's what *I* bring to the (literal) table" (probably only cooks at most once per week, and it's only one part of that meal)
And then expects her to do all the cleanup
Yes! It's trusting yourself to recognize and act upon the fact that, if the tip of the iceberg gives "an ick," the rest of the iceberg below is absolutely going to be terrible. So you just immediately pass on it.
When women say “men aren’t putting that much thought into this” THOSE women are indicting the men for not making any effort when the men should be. Do those same men fret over their resumes/CVs and carefully write and edit them — or pay an expert to do so? Of course they do. So men should expend at least that much time and energy on their dating profile and initial conversations with women IF they are serious about finding a long-term partnership. If they don’t or are the “just ask” guys, they are not serious about building relationships and are looking for hook-ups.
I meant the women who take issue with us being “too hard” on men, who say we’re expecting too much. Yes, it’s definitely patronizing toward men, who are capable of doing a lot in other spheres! But it’s surprising how many actually extend this attitude to other areas of their lives, too. As a business owner, I was often shocked when looking at CVs, and there was definitely a gender divide when it came to professionalism/effort applied.
Correct, I wasn’t arguing with you! The women who excuse men’s poor behavior/attitudes/lack of effort (internalized misogyny) don’t even realize that they, too, are being hard on men in this example by pointing out lack of effort. So they are hypocritical on top of carrying water for the patriarchy. 😂
🙌❤️
Lol, if I put "just ask" for my entire resume :D
You know some (many??) dudes just get their wives to write their resumes. I admit that I did it a long time ago, but I needed the husband to get a job. 😂
This! This! This!
Def the Sun heuristic - but I'd go beyond 'looking for trad wife'. I notice this pattern in men a LOT that I just identify as IMMATURITY. Men want women who will make their lives easier and more enjoyable. Like a 4 year old.
"I want to play Mommy! Watch me do this Mommy! I want to be silly and laugh with you Mommy! I want a hug Mommy!" But also, Moms need to handle all the labor and responsibilities - cook, clean, plan, buy clothes, provide shelter, meet all needs for the child. The child is not even aware of Mom's labor much less has to ask for it.
100% agree, they don't see women as autonomous humans, just 'free vending machines of benefits and services' - 'I like the things I receive out of this thing.' Punch in code, receive fun and laughter. Punch in another code, receive kindness and caring. It is one directional. Even when they offer something in return (Look! I put coins in you!) what is expected in return? Praise and gratitude! The things men like about the vending machine has nothing to do with the marveling at the mechanics of the machine, it has to do with what they get OUT of the machine. What the machine provides. Without any expectation in return.
If the pattern had a name I'd call it "I want a playmate! (But also be my mommy)."
Many men want to a woman who makes them FEEL GOOD. "She is nice to ME. She is kind to ME. She likes to laugh and have fun with ME. She gives affection to ME. She cheers for me. She has sex with ME." When a woman no longer makes them feel these enjoyable feelings, they lose interest and want a different woman.
There isn't something specific (most) men value and appreciate about any singular woman as a unique human individual. They are chasing the experience of delightful feelings they enjoy FROM a woman. Who she is and what makes her uniquely her is not relevant. You can find kind, nice, and fun in any woman who comes next when the current one stops dispensing only kind, nice and fun.
Men want women who provide them feelings they enjoy, without demands or needs in return.
They want the Eternal Honeymoon phase. All fun. All bliss. All laughter. All sparky chemistry and sex. Then years into marriage "Where's the fun, carefree, sexy girl I met long ago? What happened? Where did she go?"
She's been making every freaking meal for years. She's been cleaning the house, hosting the holidays, managing the kids, working her own full time job, doing the laundry, planning the family vacations, filling out thousands of forms for doctors, schools, soccer camps, dispensing unreciprocated orgasms when she's dead tired, etc. All while you sit around complaining about her nagging, asking where something is in the fridge, and whining about 'When's the last time we were intimate?'
And THIS pattern is not JUST conservative men looking for trad wives. THIS is 4 year old mentality - everything FOR 'me'. Profound, self-centered immaturity. Not partnership. Not reciprocity. Not shared responsibility, investment, labor.
THIS is SO many men left, right, center, young, old, educated, drop-outs, rich, broke, religious, atheists, of every race and in every place.
They don't seek partnership and connection with a unique human being. It's vending machines of benefits and services. They want what they RECEIVE from the experience.
I really appreciate the vending machine metaphor.
Thanks for this excellent description and metaphor of a 4 year old in front of a vending machine. It’s spot on.
This is a whole essay and I hope you make it one.
This reminds me of a dynamic that at the time I didn’t have words for, but knew there was something wrong with. I dated a man a few years ago (we were both in our late 40s at the time), who wore the following claim like a badge of honor, “I would never cheat…because I couldn’t live with the guilt.” I would ask, “Not because it would be hurtful to the person you’re cheating on?” 🤔
I would like to say thank you for this post. I wish that I would have had this knowledge a few years ago when I started on the apps. Boy, did I waste time believing and not truly understanding the words presented to me. There were too many me, me, me guys. Now, I am so lucky to have found my needle. He's kind, consistent, caring, loves my dog, and did I say consistent?
To echo Chrystal @mizweirdo . . .As a therapist, I often ask male clients who have female partners what they love and respect about them. Very often, their answers focus on what she does for him, how she makes him feel, the roles she plays. Plus, of course, looks. Even when pushed. It's definitely revelatory!
I said to my (now dead ex-husband) “You wouldn’t care if I died.” He insisted he would care, so I asked him why. “Who would take care of the animals?”
And does this cause them to reflect in any way?
Sometimes. Those who are ready to take full accountability for their part in their dynamics generally will. Pointing this out can be a lightbulb moment for them. The rest? It's a crapshoot. In those cases, I do what I can to encourage and facilitate reflection, yet there's only so much I can do. In the case of those who cannot or will not reflect, my hope is that at the very least, I'm planting a seed that might someday grow. My first supervisor told me "never work harder than them in the session. Let them do the work." That certainly applies here!
If they're not in therapy to reflect, do they just want you to affirm how awesome they are, then?
I've learned how to weed out the ones who aren't ready or able to reflect. If they're only looking for affirmation, they'll need to look elsewhere. I've also learned that sometimes people are ready to reflect in certain areas, and not yet ready and/or able to reflect in others. Exploring that with compassion and curiosity is important. And, a big part of my job is to hold up a mirror to the difficult things, too. Compassionate straight talk often does the trick.
O good to have the partner in the room too so their lights go on.
This reminds me of when I matched with a guy a month or two ago on Facebook dating. I'm a writer. He pressed me on this and I told him I've got six published books under my belt. His response — and I am not making this up — was, "I bet I could write a book! I keep notes on things. I kept a journal when I was a teenager. I have had many experiences" and OH MY GAWD, I just wanted to smack him. Obviously that was a big B2B.
"Hi, Sun! That's so cool that you use nuclear fusion to heat the entire solar system. I bet I could also use nuclear fusion to heat the entire solar system. I keep notes on things. I have had many experiences."
Wow he really showed off his writing skills, too. No thumbs up, and blocking.
Well done as always 🙏
I have also used similar rhetorical analysis techniques when conducting InfoSec/compliance investigations: it’s incredible how much the “choice” of words that a person uses can reveal about their inner world.
As such, I also have a related tip that might be valuable: allow the subject of your observation plenty of opportunity early on to show themselves for who they are (Brooke Teagarden has a sad but hilarious way of doing so!). Silence is a really powerful tool as well, as people under scrutiny usually want to fill those silences.
In Sol☀️idarity, DC.
Brooke is BRUTAL. It is so funny to see how she unravels them. She aims her poison pen at conservative men and delivers some great history lessons in the process.
And she’s hilarious!
Do you have a link you could share re: Brooke Teagarden's method? Thanks in advance!
Make America Learn History Again
https://letsnotdate.substack.com/
Brooke Teagarden is amazing!! Let’s Not Date is her facebook
After reading this, I feel like the curtains have been opened in a dark room and the sun came streaming in! Jennie, you make this information so accessible to us! I am working my way back onto the apps after about three years and I am waiting the arrival of your book to finalize my profile and go "live". In the meantime, I am practicing BHDM on the daily profiles that Bumble will show me with my "snoozed" profile. Thank you for all you do.
Great idea!
OMG I could have used this last fall when I started dating someone. He would say what seemed like the right things - but I would not feel quite as great about them later. Taken in this context, every supposedly nice thing was always with him as the focus - but it was so subtle you can’t quite pinpoint what the problem was. I’m not dating him anymore - but this would have saved me a couple months of back and forth frustration 🙄
I am learning so much from reading all the posts on the Facebook page, the articles on Substack and watching the Instagram reels. It has opened up an area of my life that needed to be healed. I am not dating yet, but have so much hope that when I do, I will be much more discerning and not end up in another toxic relationship. Thank you for being brave enough to share everything with so many women Jenny.
This is an excellent analogy. We truly would be wise to consider ourselves from the perspective of the Sun. Taking it further, when confronted with a self-confident woman, many ‘red flag’ men immediately try to eclipse her! Would be growth for all to realize in that scenario men are but a moon orbiting around our Sun — eclipses are rare.
Block them from our own orbit. Also, as the Sun, extra easy to burn them! 😉
Love this analysis, thank you for so clearly stating why we get the ick feeling just before blocking.
Too many profiles look like:
“Looking for a good(or kind), attractive woman who stays in shape. You will like to have a good time and enjoy intimacy often. Must know how to compromise.”
I read- be pretty and stay in shape, I’ll be measuring you against 16 year old photo shopped models. Be good, cook, clean and entertain me without any expectations or complaining. Sex will be on demand. If there’s a disagreement, you’ll be kind and bend to my wishes.
B2B every time!
When I read "I'm looking for..." I imagine cranky faced men pushing carts through the supermarket calling out for groceries to jump into their carts. "I'm looking for triscuits, chipotle mustard, one pound of sliced ham."
This ⬆️ is exactly why I love you and BHDM and why EVERYONE needs to read BURN THE HAYSTACK.
We are so inured to being the object of provision/usage in men’s language structure.
Excellent read. I did giggle at this though--my actual name is Sun lol