His "give you space" reaction to you being authentic about real frustrations that matter, gives me the ick. It feels like a passive-aggressive way to shut you down that is guised in respectfulness.
No, that's actually what most men prefer in emotionally taxing situations - to let it percolate though their brain quietly until they are ok again. What they don't get is that we women most of the time appreciate someone who listens and commiserates until Our brain has worked through things and is ok again. So the worst thing for most women is to be given space (aka abandoned) and the worst case for men in emotionally difficult situations is to have to use their precious brain power for verbalizing while the capacity is urgently needed to process emotions.
What you are describing is an introversive versus and extroversive style of problem solving. These are not necessarily gender-based (nor necessarily aligned with one’s social introversion/extroversion). However, while I typically will give the benefit of the doubt to a person, I do not see this as being merely about him having an introversive style and errantly following the Golden Rule (which typically will fail in relationships), but rather that he is not equipped or at least was not ready for the deeper relating, especially as it relates to uncomfortable feelings. She “let” (for lack of a better word) real life intrude on their fun before he was ready (if he would ever be ready - after all, we are often expected to not take ourselves seriously)
I don’t know about ‘most men’ / women, I resist these generalisations generally, but your description matches my experience in my current relationship. In fact I have learnt from my partner to take time to reflect before blurting out my thoughts and feelings. It actually makes for a better conversation than when I just dump, which confuses him. And sometimes I get perspective all by myself, which feels grownup and autonomous, and I can share it after some processing.
Seriously, the right thing to do in that instance, rather to give space, is to step up, like a good partner would do, to be a sounding board and then help cheer you up and get over the bad day.
Because a true partner would know that this type of thing is transitory and more fun and funny days will come, since life realistically is a lot of both ups and downs.
It's a good thing they revealed themselves early as someone who can't hold up their side of a relationship. The equivalent of leaving out the "or worse" in the wedding vows.
These are the guys that bail on you as soon as you get sick or have a low libido for a couple months during your pregnancy, or whatever.
They expect you to be the best thing since sliced bread for THEM - but have no interest in reciprocating.
You know what? Yeah! The more I think about it, the more I think this guy is fired for not making YOU laugh when you might have needed it? Anyway, NEXT indeed
I definitely went through a period when I felt like I was perpetually being treated as "The Good Time Girl." I was charming, fun, sexy, sympathetic, cultured. I was a gem to take to events. I was playful and spicy when we were alone. I listened and was supportive when they were troubled.
AND I was the person that kept getting brushed aside or manipulated by these dudes the moment I had a hard day, or disagreed, or needed help.
I don't spend time with those men anymore. In the end, it was making me feel bad about myself to be giving out and not getting enough back and to be treated as if I wasn't "the kind of person" worth investing in.
Basically it's really a them problem, so you cut them off at the first red flag. You can test for those early, too, to avoid wasting your time. Highly recommend Burned Haystack Dating Method.
Yes to this. You have to learn to spot the signs and cut them out completely. And being introspective about their impact on me made a big difference. I was choosing to spend time with them until I wasn't. I said, "Is this what I think I deserve?" And the answer was no.
I had a realization over time that this was negatively impacting my self-esteem, which was otherwise very good. I also started counseling with an excellent therapist who knew how to work with these patterns. Some of these men were narcissistic. Some of them were otherwise self-centered to a lesser degree with problematic behaviors toward women.
Much further down the road, when I had worked through many of these issues and separated myself from them, my counselor and I reflected on that time. She said, "It was difficult. There was a time that I was genuinely worried for your safety, and I spoke about this with my own mentor. I wasn't sure at what point I would need to intervene differently. But I also knew it was really important to help guide you through these questions and come to these realizations on your own, because it would protect you from other men like these in the future."
BHDM has been an incredibly helpful set of specific tools as well, on top of this work I've done with my counselor. It's sharp and articulate and names some of the things that you always felt were wrong but maybe couldn't quantify.
Yes, this is the problem. Men like to complain that women put on a fake persona at the beginning of dating and then the real and disappointing woman reveals herself. They perceive us as fake and lying. But it’s really just that we are complex human beings like everyone else and life is not the same every day. Our needs are not the same every day. Because men choose to remain adolescents, they only want the idealistic beginning of a romance. But that’s not where real meaningful connection lies. So we all miss out. BTW, I think you are hilarious.
This is why I’m a curmudgeon from the beginning. I message back whenever I (don’t) want to, won’t talk on the phone or video so he can see if I’m fat or squeaky, and I’ll only commence a date zero between 4:30-530p within a mile radius. No cool girl stuff until later 🥳
I agree. It’s being treated like sporting equipment or a movie. We aren’t supposed to have any wants or needs, just appear in the correct form then go back in the shed or get shut off when he wants to do something else.
There was this text exchange posted on the BHDM Facebook group last week, where a guy actually demanded (paraphrased) to let him smell the pretty flower scent of a woman, the serious stuff was for when he decided to be monogamous. Unreal !
First off, I am really sorry this happened. I think that you know the answer (and you were asking rhetorically), but no, you weren't asking too much to be accepted in that moment for showing a different side of yourself. In fact, one thing you didn't state, is that in sharing that you were having a bad day, you expressed a need for support, and he flat out got freaked out. As much as you dodged a bullet, it still hurts and it sucks.
This reminds me of that last time I tried to juggle a FWB. This guy was not only attractive and talented, he was smart, funny, nice, did good things in the world, politically aligned with me, and made me feel like a million bucks. The FWB part of it worked for me at first, especially since he is long distance. I did note that under all of these things, he wasn't really deep. I grew to realize that he always needed things to be fun fun fun. WHen his life wasn't fun, he would retreat. We fell out of contact for a while last fall and he said his reaction to the election outcome was to get blackout drunk.
He was a fantasy guy and after a while, there was a pattern where he'd propose a date, get me revved up for days, then raincheck the day of. I called him on it... suggested that maybe he cared more about the specter of getting together because it fueled the fantasy, but he no longer was able to actually get himself to show up. He never replied and I haven't heard from him since. I do not miss him and am proud that I could call out the pattern.
I think alot of people out there really can't cope with this world except with fun! Humor! It's all good! You interject a little reality, and they can't handle it, and they bail. He was whatever MeyerBriggs type is extroverted! Fun! Spontaneous! Goes by gut! I am the exact opposite, lol. I appreciate the fun we had but I am way more emotionally mature than him and you are the same with your candidate. Still, it sucks. Good on you for sensing the shift before he blew you off.
I LOVE the word candidate, and that's what I'm going to use from now on. That will help me stay in the business mindset instead of getting lost in Romantiland.
I feel this so deeply. Earlier this year I matched with someone on Hinge. We solely messaged through the app for several days and the banter was witty, consistent, and fun. He told me often how much I was making him laugh, and added that wit like mine was a sign of great intelligence. (He’s not wrong about that.) We also had conversations about real things and I was excited to meet him in person for the first time. He was stable enough and lived close enough and was good looking enough and put together enough that I thought this could maybe go somewhere. And then we met. Literally the first words out of his mouth to me were, “say something funny.” I almost walked out of the restaurant, but decided to continue with the date. I must have heard “you’re so funny in text” at least 10 times in those 90 minutes. (I’m not a comedian or a clown, I don’t tell jokes on demand, sir!) I actually went out with him again, two more times, thinking he would ease up on that - since everything else seemed promising - but he never did. Unbearable. Thank you, next!
Men hate complexity. Mostly because they struggle to understand it and because it takes actual work to be in a relationship that doesn’t revolve around THEIR every need and emotion. I might be single for the rest of my life, and I am totally okay with that if it means I don’t have to contort myself to be “easy.”
I've has this experience over and over again of men completely pulling back and ultimately rejecting me the second I mention one of two things: anything even mildly negative or that I like them. It's like a switch flips and they can't get away fast enough. I'm not allowed to be a human in my fullness, apparently.
Yes! What the heck is that about. And then they're mad and think you're a liar when you're feelings change. Sorry! Not liking me back and not being supportive is very unattractive!
I can totally relate! I’m the funny one in much the same way. It was honed as a coping and defense mechanism I developed long ago that I have since evolved into a dazzling feature of my sparkling personality.
But while it’s fun to be funny — and boy the online dating shitshow is hilarious and ripe with comedic material — my life isn’t a standup act. So I’m glad to see how you’ve riddled it out in your article, no pun intended. My knack for using comedy to charm a prospective date or sift through the haystack can, and has, occasionally backfired.
Alas, we must soldier on. Comedic sensibilities in hand, heads held high, as we wade back into the fray.
And never, ever lose our sense of humor or our sparkle.
I've met MANY men who seem to be like this - lighthearted, "easy going", receptive and responsive to humour and fun. But they have all seemed EXTREMELY averse, almost downright terrified, of any kind of interaction that even borders on seriousness or negativity of any kind. Which, naturally, makes for an absolutely horrible and, frankly, toxic relationship. Anyone who can't hold space for the full spectrum of human emotions in a partner, and is only comfortable with the "good stuff", reeks of emotional immaturity and is potentially extremely harmful.
My last partner would constantly shut me down any time I tried to talk with him about a bad day I was having, or try to tell him about some traumas I was working through, especially ones that were triggered by his words or actions. And even though I always endeavoured to do these things in a calm, respectful way, he would become extremely agitated and tell me that I "shouldn't be talking to him about this stuff", and that it's "unhealthy to still be struggling with these issues", that he didn't like my "negative energy".
It was maddening, and the continued gaslighting made me believe that there was something very wrong with me, that I was causing him harm and I was the only problem in the relationship.
Anyway.
Thank you once again for coming to my TED Talk. Lol
I think you hit the nail on the head here - dark humor (which I also hold dear) is a wonderful way to bond joyfully over DARKNESS. You know, that stuff that is all around us and occasionally in a cloud so thick we can barely speak without choking? It's not too high a standard to need a partner who shifts fluidly between humor and true sober empathy (and, please god, back!)
Yup. I, too, am usually "The Funny One". And there is a second pitfall beyond the horrors of not being funny all the time. Wait until you're funnier than he is in public, or IN FRONT OF HIS FRIENDS. It's like you've castrated him and are now juggling with both his balls and maybe a lime from the bar. Boys don't like that. Not one bit.
I had a man lead by saying he thought I had a great smile and that I must be happy all the time. I full on said, I am not. I am a complete and full human being with all the emotions. He didn't run away, so I'm seeing if it gets worse.
Another man just said he thinks growth is a whole life endeavor (YAY) then said that he wants a humble and "apologetic" woman. WTH.
And the guy I was seeing who lives in Madison might have been the guy to blow you off. Writer, Comedian. Funny and irreverent. But broke up because I have sadness and anger along with joy and being funny and sexy.
I completely agree, and guessing you republished because this now because it's getting harder to see humor in the world lately, and that's not just dating. Although there's a breaking story this morning of a full size metal statue somehow placed on the Mall in Washington DC during the night...of DT holding hands with Jeffry Epstein. And I literally broke down laughing, because, well, it *does* promote friendship, and that's a great thing, right??!!
Dating is not an open mic night! I guess he was basically dating for entertainment, not building a relationship with a whole person.
So no, you're definitely not a trick pony. You're a whole carousel. With music and mirrors and ups and downs that might be dizzying at times, but worth the ride.
His "give you space" reaction to you being authentic about real frustrations that matter, gives me the ick. It feels like a passive-aggressive way to shut you down that is guised in respectfulness.
No, that's actually what most men prefer in emotionally taxing situations - to let it percolate though their brain quietly until they are ok again. What they don't get is that we women most of the time appreciate someone who listens and commiserates until Our brain has worked through things and is ok again. So the worst thing for most women is to be given space (aka abandoned) and the worst case for men in emotionally difficult situations is to have to use their precious brain power for verbalizing while the capacity is urgently needed to process emotions.
A bit simplified, but matches my experience.
What you are describing is an introversive versus and extroversive style of problem solving. These are not necessarily gender-based (nor necessarily aligned with one’s social introversion/extroversion). However, while I typically will give the benefit of the doubt to a person, I do not see this as being merely about him having an introversive style and errantly following the Golden Rule (which typically will fail in relationships), but rather that he is not equipped or at least was not ready for the deeper relating, especially as it relates to uncomfortable feelings. She “let” (for lack of a better word) real life intrude on their fun before he was ready (if he would ever be ready - after all, we are often expected to not take ourselves seriously)
I don’t know about ‘most men’ / women, I resist these generalisations generally, but your description matches my experience in my current relationship. In fact I have learnt from my partner to take time to reflect before blurting out my thoughts and feelings. It actually makes for a better conversation than when I just dump, which confuses him. And sometimes I get perspective all by myself, which feels grownup and autonomous, and I can share it after some processing.
You start your statement with “No”. “No” what, exactly? I appreciate your perception here too.
Seriously, the right thing to do in that instance, rather to give space, is to step up, like a good partner would do, to be a sounding board and then help cheer you up and get over the bad day.
Because a true partner would know that this type of thing is transitory and more fun and funny days will come, since life realistically is a lot of both ups and downs.
It's a good thing they revealed themselves early as someone who can't hold up their side of a relationship. The equivalent of leaving out the "or worse" in the wedding vows.
These are the guys that bail on you as soon as you get sick or have a low libido for a couple months during your pregnancy, or whatever.
They expect you to be the best thing since sliced bread for THEM - but have no interest in reciprocating.
Good riddance.
He didn’t deserve your humor. NEXT!
Aww, thank you 🙏
You know what? Yeah! The more I think about it, the more I think this guy is fired for not making YOU laugh when you might have needed it? Anyway, NEXT indeed
For real. I relate to her humor so hard :)
It is a problem.
I definitely went through a period when I felt like I was perpetually being treated as "The Good Time Girl." I was charming, fun, sexy, sympathetic, cultured. I was a gem to take to events. I was playful and spicy when we were alone. I listened and was supportive when they were troubled.
AND I was the person that kept getting brushed aside or manipulated by these dudes the moment I had a hard day, or disagreed, or needed help.
I don't spend time with those men anymore. In the end, it was making me feel bad about myself to be giving out and not getting enough back and to be treated as if I wasn't "the kind of person" worth investing in.
I'm much happier now and less vulnerable to them.
How did you solve this for yourself? I have this issue with men over and over again and I dont know what to do to get un-stuck from the pattern.
Basically it's really a them problem, so you cut them off at the first red flag. You can test for those early, too, to avoid wasting your time. Highly recommend Burned Haystack Dating Method.
Yes to this. You have to learn to spot the signs and cut them out completely. And being introspective about their impact on me made a big difference. I was choosing to spend time with them until I wasn't. I said, "Is this what I think I deserve?" And the answer was no.
I had a realization over time that this was negatively impacting my self-esteem, which was otherwise very good. I also started counseling with an excellent therapist who knew how to work with these patterns. Some of these men were narcissistic. Some of them were otherwise self-centered to a lesser degree with problematic behaviors toward women.
Much further down the road, when I had worked through many of these issues and separated myself from them, my counselor and I reflected on that time. She said, "It was difficult. There was a time that I was genuinely worried for your safety, and I spoke about this with my own mentor. I wasn't sure at what point I would need to intervene differently. But I also knew it was really important to help guide you through these questions and come to these realizations on your own, because it would protect you from other men like these in the future."
BHDM has been an incredibly helpful set of specific tools as well, on top of this work I've done with my counselor. It's sharp and articulate and names some of the things that you always felt were wrong but maybe couldn't quantify.
You could write an article about this! :) Preferably not on this platform (substack), but still! :)
Yes, this is the problem. Men like to complain that women put on a fake persona at the beginning of dating and then the real and disappointing woman reveals herself. They perceive us as fake and lying. But it’s really just that we are complex human beings like everyone else and life is not the same every day. Our needs are not the same every day. Because men choose to remain adolescents, they only want the idealistic beginning of a romance. But that’s not where real meaningful connection lies. So we all miss out. BTW, I think you are hilarious.
This is why I’m a curmudgeon from the beginning. I message back whenever I (don’t) want to, won’t talk on the phone or video so he can see if I’m fat or squeaky, and I’ll only commence a date zero between 4:30-530p within a mile radius. No cool girl stuff until later 🥳
This is the way! Men who actually like me go crazy (in a good way) when I’m comfortable and self-indulgent.
I agree. It’s being treated like sporting equipment or a movie. We aren’t supposed to have any wants or needs, just appear in the correct form then go back in the shed or get shut off when he wants to do something else.
There was this text exchange posted on the BHDM Facebook group last week, where a guy actually demanded (paraphrased) to let him smell the pretty flower scent of a woman, the serious stuff was for when he decided to be monogamous. Unreal !
He liked you up until you said you had a bad day…what a bummer you’re not “funny” ALL the time. Wtf is with these overgrown toddlers?
First off, I am really sorry this happened. I think that you know the answer (and you were asking rhetorically), but no, you weren't asking too much to be accepted in that moment for showing a different side of yourself. In fact, one thing you didn't state, is that in sharing that you were having a bad day, you expressed a need for support, and he flat out got freaked out. As much as you dodged a bullet, it still hurts and it sucks.
This reminds me of that last time I tried to juggle a FWB. This guy was not only attractive and talented, he was smart, funny, nice, did good things in the world, politically aligned with me, and made me feel like a million bucks. The FWB part of it worked for me at first, especially since he is long distance. I did note that under all of these things, he wasn't really deep. I grew to realize that he always needed things to be fun fun fun. WHen his life wasn't fun, he would retreat. We fell out of contact for a while last fall and he said his reaction to the election outcome was to get blackout drunk.
He was a fantasy guy and after a while, there was a pattern where he'd propose a date, get me revved up for days, then raincheck the day of. I called him on it... suggested that maybe he cared more about the specter of getting together because it fueled the fantasy, but he no longer was able to actually get himself to show up. He never replied and I haven't heard from him since. I do not miss him and am proud that I could call out the pattern.
I think alot of people out there really can't cope with this world except with fun! Humor! It's all good! You interject a little reality, and they can't handle it, and they bail. He was whatever MeyerBriggs type is extroverted! Fun! Spontaneous! Goes by gut! I am the exact opposite, lol. I appreciate the fun we had but I am way more emotionally mature than him and you are the same with your candidate. Still, it sucks. Good on you for sensing the shift before he blew you off.
This is part of why men are rarely good FWBs; a lot of them are terrible at the “friends” part of friends with benefits.
I LOVE the word candidate, and that's what I'm going to use from now on. That will help me stay in the business mindset instead of getting lost in Romantiland.
I feel this so deeply. Earlier this year I matched with someone on Hinge. We solely messaged through the app for several days and the banter was witty, consistent, and fun. He told me often how much I was making him laugh, and added that wit like mine was a sign of great intelligence. (He’s not wrong about that.) We also had conversations about real things and I was excited to meet him in person for the first time. He was stable enough and lived close enough and was good looking enough and put together enough that I thought this could maybe go somewhere. And then we met. Literally the first words out of his mouth to me were, “say something funny.” I almost walked out of the restaurant, but decided to continue with the date. I must have heard “you’re so funny in text” at least 10 times in those 90 minutes. (I’m not a comedian or a clown, I don’t tell jokes on demand, sir!) I actually went out with him again, two more times, thinking he would ease up on that - since everything else seemed promising - but he never did. Unbearable. Thank you, next!
Men hate complexity. Mostly because they struggle to understand it and because it takes actual work to be in a relationship that doesn’t revolve around THEIR every need and emotion. I might be single for the rest of my life, and I am totally okay with that if it means I don’t have to contort myself to be “easy.”
💯
I've has this experience over and over again of men completely pulling back and ultimately rejecting me the second I mention one of two things: anything even mildly negative or that I like them. It's like a switch flips and they can't get away fast enough. I'm not allowed to be a human in my fullness, apparently.
Yes! What the heck is that about. And then they're mad and think you're a liar when you're feelings change. Sorry! Not liking me back and not being supportive is very unattractive!
Yep! Same. We are filtering them out, I suppose :)
I can totally relate! I’m the funny one in much the same way. It was honed as a coping and defense mechanism I developed long ago that I have since evolved into a dazzling feature of my sparkling personality.
But while it’s fun to be funny — and boy the online dating shitshow is hilarious and ripe with comedic material — my life isn’t a standup act. So I’m glad to see how you’ve riddled it out in your article, no pun intended. My knack for using comedy to charm a prospective date or sift through the haystack can, and has, occasionally backfired.
Alas, we must soldier on. Comedic sensibilities in hand, heads held high, as we wade back into the fray.
And never, ever lose our sense of humor or our sparkle.
I've met MANY men who seem to be like this - lighthearted, "easy going", receptive and responsive to humour and fun. But they have all seemed EXTREMELY averse, almost downright terrified, of any kind of interaction that even borders on seriousness or negativity of any kind. Which, naturally, makes for an absolutely horrible and, frankly, toxic relationship. Anyone who can't hold space for the full spectrum of human emotions in a partner, and is only comfortable with the "good stuff", reeks of emotional immaturity and is potentially extremely harmful.
My last partner would constantly shut me down any time I tried to talk with him about a bad day I was having, or try to tell him about some traumas I was working through, especially ones that were triggered by his words or actions. And even though I always endeavoured to do these things in a calm, respectful way, he would become extremely agitated and tell me that I "shouldn't be talking to him about this stuff", and that it's "unhealthy to still be struggling with these issues", that he didn't like my "negative energy".
It was maddening, and the continued gaslighting made me believe that there was something very wrong with me, that I was causing him harm and I was the only problem in the relationship.
Anyway.
Thank you once again for coming to my TED Talk. Lol
I’m glad you finally realized that HE was the limited one. Men who fear their own inner selves will always be toxic to us.
I think you hit the nail on the head here - dark humor (which I also hold dear) is a wonderful way to bond joyfully over DARKNESS. You know, that stuff that is all around us and occasionally in a cloud so thick we can barely speak without choking? It's not too high a standard to need a partner who shifts fluidly between humor and true sober empathy (and, please god, back!)
Yup. I, too, am usually "The Funny One". And there is a second pitfall beyond the horrors of not being funny all the time. Wait until you're funnier than he is in public, or IN FRONT OF HIS FRIENDS. It's like you've castrated him and are now juggling with both his balls and maybe a lime from the bar. Boys don't like that. Not one bit.
Laughing out loud ! Now how do I get that picture out of my head ?
I had a man lead by saying he thought I had a great smile and that I must be happy all the time. I full on said, I am not. I am a complete and full human being with all the emotions. He didn't run away, so I'm seeing if it gets worse.
Another man just said he thinks growth is a whole life endeavor (YAY) then said that he wants a humble and "apologetic" woman. WTH.
And the guy I was seeing who lives in Madison might have been the guy to blow you off. Writer, Comedian. Funny and irreverent. But broke up because I have sadness and anger along with joy and being funny and sexy.
I completely agree, and guessing you republished because this now because it's getting harder to see humor in the world lately, and that's not just dating. Although there's a breaking story this morning of a full size metal statue somehow placed on the Mall in Washington DC during the night...of DT holding hands with Jeffry Epstein. And I literally broke down laughing, because, well, it *does* promote friendship, and that's a great thing, right??!!
Dating is not an open mic night! I guess he was basically dating for entertainment, not building a relationship with a whole person.
So no, you're definitely not a trick pony. You're a whole carousel. With music and mirrors and ups and downs that might be dizzying at times, but worth the ride.