My biggest ICK was after a date that just fine. We had a nice time. I texted him to let him know that I had gotten home and he texted back photos of himself in the shower. Burned Haystack didn't exist at that time, so I texted back, "Way to ruin a nice evening" and blocked him. So gross.
I had not met this man yet, we had been talking in a dating app. We had postponed meeting because my mom had just had surgery and I was busy selling her furniture out of a storage unit. He contacted me asking what I was doing. My response “just back from the dusty storage unit and feeling filthy and exhausted. A shower will be nice.” He took the opportunity to make some sexual innuendo comment about imagining me naked. I lost my shit on him and blocked him. Do not poke the bear. (exhausted caregiver) so insulting!
Thank you so much for writing this! I am 60 years old and most of my past relationship have been with men who gave me the ICK. I ignored it as society said I should and those relationships all ended disastrously. You are empowering women and making them feel heard. Thank you so much for your work!
I’m 64, and I messaged a guy “Nice looking family.” He wrote back “You have a nice body.” I messaged “Why do men thinks it’s a great opener to comment on a woman’s body?” He replied “I don’t know, but you sure have great boobies!” So I responded “You’re right, I do, and you’re never going to get to see them because you’re an ass.” (This was pre BHDM.) Now I’d just block after his first message, but it was still a little bit satisfying. :-)
I once had a date which seemed quite fun and I was trying to convince myself I liked this guy, no obvious reason not to. I invited him back to my place as I thought I felt relaxed with him, we made out on the sofa a bit, but as soon as he left I found myself putting all my clothes straight in the washing machine. I still don’t really know why, but my body certainly knew. I messaged him to say he reminded me too much of my ex husband (the smell?) and didn’t see him again.
I was married for 30 years to a man whose behaviour and comments and body often gave me the ICK but I had to override it. It’s such a relief to be able to trust this feeling again.
I completely understand that! We always try to convince ourselves, it's so hardwired for so long! It's like the second you had time to yourself, you were able to tune into the message your body was sending you to get him far away from you!!! I was also married for a long time to a man with the exact same thing going on - we just push all of those feelings down, right? But NO MORE of that!!! You're so right - it's a huge relief and so validating too :)
KB, I too am a boomer and sooooo many men our age think that commenting on our looks/clothes is something we are looking for and grateful to receive. It's a challenge because we grew up in a culture where men pretty much always complimented on one's looks and, if not, it was a sign the guy was uninterested in you. I find that I like the men who don't focus on superficial appearances and see me (not just my outward presentation) but also am still conditioned to hear the compliment when I take the time to get dressed up. Talk about cognitive dissonance! :)
So much this! I am an elder GenX, just turned 59, and it has been very difficult to deprogram the internalized misogyny that was passed down from my mother (a pre-boomer). If my date sent me a photo from the shower, my first thought is "oh, he is home too and relaxing, and thinks I'm worth a sexy photo." And this is why I am single, because I need to stop feeding into that.
I’m in the same age bracket and totally agree with every word here. I’m so grateful to Jennie and our pyro sisters for recalibrating my internal dialogue. I no longer tolerate men who cross the burn line.
I married a man who gave me the ick and was with him for 23 years!! I’m SO mad at myself for letting him steal decades of my life. He was incredibly childish, down to talking baby talk “We go bed now?” Or, if I was talking to another man, he’d stand there and TUG AT MY SLEEVE like a 3 year old.
Since joining this group, I have discovered the following:
The ICK is my #1 guide for all dating apps and people in general. My ICK is not only an internal physical response but I also have an outward Tell that informs me. First, my eyes squint (as if to keep the visual energy from reaching me) and my head pulls back turtle-like. It is completely subconscious and not scripted in the least. However, I am becoming more aware of this lightning-fast reaction in my body and trust it as a B2B. It might take hours, days or even weeks for my intellect to catch up and be able to discern and put vocabulary to my body's response. However, I no longer give people multiple chances during that time while my brain catches up. I simply B2B. Thank you, Jennie for giving me the confidence and assurance to trust my gut and to know that I owe NO ONE an explanation for what I am feeling. You are transforming my life.
I love this. We should explore this more as a community. I make an involuntary "gack" sound if I'm in private reading something, or I roll my eyes. Putting a somatic experience to this would be extremely helpful to women especially in post-domestic abuse situations. Cuz the body experience comes before deep analysis that the brain might fight you or gaslight you if you have ptsd. Jenny I think we should have a whole article on this!!! I'm sure we've got a somatic experiencing therapist with us that could also help elaborate this principle (or maybe this lady is, she obviously knows her stuff).
I love this! My intellect does take time to catch up and while it is catching up, I need to heed my body’s response, without question. As I write this, I’m feeling a level of shock and dismay that I haven’t, in the past, immediately heeded my body’s response. The power of conditioning to minimize/disregard/question my own feeling is real!
I had been dating this guy a while and ignored several red flags. The one I’m about to explain I ignored as well, but it actually made me downright angry. I’ve since dumped him for a plethora of reasons and learned a lot, thankfully.
Anyhow - the ICK incident that comes to mind - we were hanging out on his porch, looking at a pond that bordered his yard and a neighbour’s yard. The neighbour’s yard had a plastic female duck figurine near the edge of the water. It was the time of year that Mumma ducks are on the nest keeping their baby eggs warm. Two male ducks started swimming in the pond, and they were quacking back and forth. So I started making a conversation for them. It went kinda like this:
Duck 1: How are you today Bob?
Duck 2: I’m good, wife is on the nest with the babies.
Duck 1: Very nice. Good day for a swim.
Then they swam near the female duck figurine. And my boyfriend took over the conversation IN THE VOICE OF THE DUCK THAT I HAD CLEARLY MADE THE FATHER WHOSE WIFE WAS CARING FOR THEIR CHILDREN. He said:
Duck 2: Let’s go check out this sexy girl duck over here.
Oh great microcheating… dude I was dating had just suggested that while the wife is caring for the children, he’s got a hall pass. What a creep. There are so many moments I ask myself why I didn’t dump that guy earlier, and that is definitely one of them.
I could retire if I got a dollar everytime I’ve gotten the ick from a so-called joke. There is alot of test and apologize combined with so-called jokes. OMG get in the kitchen woman bah hahahah… Yeah no.
I once had a guy friend me on Facebook asking if I wanna fuck. I was like what the hell do I know you. He was like sorry learn how to take a joke. I was like learn how to write a joke.
That was after I had enough of ignoring stupid men on the internet and before knowing to not argue with stupid men on the internet. Anyways some men like to think they are hilarious when they sexually harrass strangers.
Bad comedian is a subpattern of test and apologize. Though a dude saying learn how to take a joke makes it just test with bad joke. I maybe run into this more than the average lady since I perform comedy. 🤷♀️
I gotta add here, I am so thankful for all the people interacting with my comment on the duck story. It is so validating, reiterating to me that my ICK was not just my imagination being too picky!
I think that ick just mutated with a few extra lines in front and a no at the end that I won’t write out in polite company, but come on, dude. Even if you would say this in front of your close bro friends, whom he clearly does not have, it should be an easy call to keep that to yourself and never share it with anyone else, much less a potential friend and certainly not a potential partner. I couldn’t be out in public with a grown man who acted like this.
Yup. Frankly, the fact that the thought even crossed his mind, I gradually learned, is really characteristic of how he views the existence of women for his viewing pleasure. He seriously objectified women.
He did have a few close friends, but the group dynamic is really weird and unhealthy.
Out in public with him? Turned out he was the type who always walked ahead, never ever wanted to hold my hand, and over time I realized that he was ignoring me in conversation to focus on other people around us. We could be having a conversation with other people, and he’d leave me completely out of it, including with his body language turned away from me. I’d have to insert myself every time, and sometimes he’d even cut me off and take it back.
Those things, one incident in particular was one of my last straws for getting out.
Good that you got out ! I get it that you didn't trust the ick right away. Retelling these incidents I always feel that I am making a mountain out of a molehill but it's not the thing he said, it's the attitude he shows through these comments that's the problem. And Jennie gives us the words for these feelings. I have two sons in their 20s, and they have become my (internal) litmus test: if they had said something like this, would I call them out ? If the answer is yes (and the duck comment would definitely have caused a comment from me), then the adult man saying it is ready to B2B. I still feel responsible for teaching my sons (who very rarely would say anything ick-inducing) but not grown-ass men.
I love that! I too have a son in his 20’s, and he and I have regular conversations about what mutual respect is and how to treat other people. My son is so glad too that I dumped that guy. I’m glad you work with your sons too!
I'm grateful when they say these thoughts out loud. I'd rather know sooner than later what their internal value system is and whether it aligns with me or not!
Some of them are SO GOOD at wearing a mask and acting so great in the beginning. The way patriarchy loves to label women as manipulative when in reality men are the truly manipulative ones, manipulating us into relationships based on falsehoods and fake personalities, it's so gross. I'm so grateful to Jennie for teaching rhetorical analysis, I agree I think it helps identify the warning signs so early on, even when they're pretending and wearing masks.
Thank you! I was enjoying happily watching the lovely ducks and just making a nice conversation between them! I’m sure you could have added excellent and tasteful commentary too and we’d have had a great laugh together over it!
So so true - and I slowly learned that that’s exactly what he did! Near the end of the relationship he was so blatant about it that he even had an obviously established flirting pattern with a local bartender of very low character herself. And while I’m sure he’d claim it was my imagination, he did in front of me one night.
She was very obviously angry that I was with him. I’m positive he had led her to believe he was single until that night I was there with him (I realized shortly after that he had used that pattern before with other women and I just hadn’t clued in until it so obvious).
It left me wondering how many other times he’d done that behind my back during the relationship.
I quietly removed the rest of my things from his home to minimize confrontation, and very shortly after that I dumped him.
OMG that is gross! He's clearly telling you who he is (and probably didn't even realise it) and you just know that if you had said anything or pulled him up about it he would be all "but it's just a Jooookkkkkeeeee".
Yes!!! So many times he said rotten things like that, and if I showed any disgust, irritation, or called him out on it - without fail, I don’t think he ever apologized - he loved to tell me I was way too sensitive and couldn’t take a joke and everyone else would know that was just funny. The problem was always me…
In my journey of being divorced and single, I admittedly paid for a relationship coach. I had read the book Love in 90 Days by psychologist and author Diana Kirschner and then worked with a coach that trained with her. It was ridiculously expensive, I feel ashamed I paid for it! Sigh. But most importantly she teaches what I have now identified as toxic since learning BHDM- this psychologist and author teaches something to women called "Positive Paranoia " which is basically to ignore the ICK factor we feel in our gut and tell ourselves it's us imagining it, that HE isn't really that bad, to give him grace, etc. It was the worse advice I had ever been given, but I fell for it because it's in a book written by a well known psychologist, and my coach was promoting the value of this "Positive Paranoia". Needless to say, I ended up in a very traumatic relationship with a man with many, many red flags. That relationship is since over because I found BHDM. I identified many, many red flags this man had based on Jennie's rhetorical patterns AND gave myself a pat on the back for learning to trust my intuition. Let's just say he should have a red flag tatooed on his forehead! Thank you Jennie for validating what I've known all along, that my women's intuition is strong! Thank you for giving us the tools to back our intuition up. Eff Positive Paranoia and internalized misogyny. I am now using BHDM in every area of my life- it is true empowerment for women.
I hope you still don’t feel ashamed. The hardest lesson about Psychology is realizing that not all psychologists are created equal, not all are the right fit for your needs and to find the courage to keep looking for the right one or the right person, possibly not a psychologist, who can guide you to the support you need. You did that. I’d be proud of that. It’s hard to recognize what actually works and what you truly need until you’ve experienced what you don’t want or need.
I could’ve written this too, I’m in my enraged phase having been awakened to the HORRIBLE TREATEMENT I couldn’t recognize while being encouraged to IGNORE my own feelings and now I’m a whole new person after BH analyzing techniques plus a long recovery process to decentering men , wishing you well and be proud you pulled yourself up and out!
same here. I am not currently dating or even looking at the moment; I am focusing on empowering myself and am applying this rhetorical analysis to every aspect of my life. Just changed my dentist too as a result hah!
Amazing isn’t it, how far reaching the rhetorical analysis can affect and positively impact, I cut loose a friend that wouldn’t see it and wanted to defend/continue making excuses for bad male behavior. I tried to show her BHDM and she was so dismissive, I refuse to surround myself with “the old ways” for lack of a better description.
Honestly before BHDM I was annoyed every time I left the dentist office but chalked it up to me being picky or impatient. After BHDM I finally realized it's the rhetorical patterns set by bothering the dentist and the culture in the office; directive/disciplinary, I'm the Prize, and very transactional dismissive interactions.
The new dentist's office has shown no toxic rhetorical patterns during any phone calls with staff, none during check in, and none during the visit today! I left feeling happy and encouraged!
Same with therapists. I was dating a guy who had made a list of the things he wanted to feel at most times. His "goals" emotionally so to speak. But the majority of them required someone else, like "desired" and "attended to". Huge red flag, which of course I ignored. But he had gone over the list with his therapist! Why didn't she point that out to him! That he was essentially putting his goals and happiness in someone else's control (and as it turned out, only using women as a means to fulfill his own needs, never actually caring about them because we were all interchangeable). She should have tasked him with reworking them to be things he could provide to himself like "desirable," etc. Sigh.
Exactly. I was the librarian for a large moms' group, and we promoted his books heavily. The Gift of Fear (I.e., the gift is your inner intuitive knowing that something is wrong) and Protecting the Gift, and how society socializes women out of listening to their inner knowing and fear. But we're almost never wrong.
Joe Rogan has been a helpful litmus test so often I think we should take a moment to thank him. (Jk; forget him.) In the early days of divorced life (and pre-BH) I made the mistake of falling for a guy who did listen to Rogan. I was very upfront that I thought Rogan was a dangerous propagandist and terrible example for young men. I foolishly thought I could consciousness-raise this guy. Big mistake. Nope. The Joe Rogan Breakup syndrome strikes again.
This was my date!!! It took me about 36 hours to B2B - so much came out on our date and I was just mulling and mulling and Joe Rogan was a huge issue!!!
Had a date a couple of years ago with pretty neutral vibes (no red flags) from the profile and first texts. I normally don't have lunch dates for the first, but we were going to meet in a town I love and I planned to spend several hours there since I was going to be there anyway, so agreed lunch would work. I walked in (to a restaurant I had suggested... this was before I met BHDM and though I had very good instincts, as a writer, English teacher, and feminist who gets subtext, I missed the cue that his helplessness about googling restaurants was a bad sign). He was at the bar with a whiskey in front of him--12:30 p.m. ICK. But we sat. He wanted me to have a cocktail, which I did not. Then he REALLY wanted to order an appetizer. I did not want one. I was going to get a salad or something like that. He pressured me... Like really hardcore insistence. ICK. But I gave in! To make him shut up, because he obviously had no intention of doing so. He asked me to pick one. I was now pissed... 11 minutes into this date. I tried to discern what appealed to him, too, but he said he was "fine with anything." It came. He did not touch it. I asked him why he was not having some? He said, "I don't like avocadoes (or whatever thing was in the app)." I asked, incredulously, then why did you want to order it?" The answer, of course, was to test me to see if I'd cave in to his pressure, and much to my everlasting shame, I had! Whatever he said in response was stupid and forgettable. I looked up and caught the server's eye. She came right over--I could tell she was reading me loud and clear. I asked her to cancel my lunch order. She said, "Done." I walked out without looking back. And then had a lovely afternoon on a date with myself in bookstores and coffee shops and sitting on a bench eating a scone.
Interesting. I have a very similar acronym for the ick. Intuitively Conscious Knowing. I have an entire scale, which is a bit too complicated to explain here, but at its simplest, everyone starts at zero and either earns or loses points. Someone who is a friend or with good recommendations starts off positive and basically needs to be fairly terrible to get into negative points. Every ick is a negative point. One ick is not necessarily a dealbreaker. Strange how fast some people, mostly men, rack those ICKs up.
Ha! It’s mostly subconscious. I don’t actively, routinely keep score like that. However, in any decision where I feel muddled, conflicted or feel that I’m possibly being gas-lit and want to be more clear-headed I make lists, charts and diagrams. In the case of dating relationships, it’s a combination, because it can be hard to tell why I’m not thinking clearly. Are they SUPER HOT? Unusually talented? Smart? Are they giving me attention I’ve been craving, but otherwise, I’m not feeling it? Have we been to all of the same concerts? Is he fulfilling a desire I have for myself but, haven’t attempted? For instance, I use to date musicians before I realized I could just pick up a guitar, and a bass and start my own band. Or I could write my own book. Make my own art. Or start my own company. The scale isn’t the way I make decisions, Just a way to make sense of what I already know.
(ETA: the intuition is conscious, the scale is subconscious until I write/draw it out. I know that sounded contradictory.)
If by dating coach, you mean someone who will commiserate with you over Death by Chocolate, a crazy decadent dinner, or a ridiculous pampering treatment, then I am your girl. I think I’m qualified to remind my friends I think they deserve the best. I offer no insight into good partners other than to also be a friend to their partners when they find a good one. The only coaching I’ve ever been able to do is point out that someone smiles more when they are with that person than they do without them. Does that count?
I actually made/am making a few of these diagrams into an art. The two that got me started were Venn diagrams of real people I had relationships with and why I found them attractive, and fantasy crushes I’ve had and why I found them attractive. The thing I’ve found most interesting, is that ultimately I learned much more about myself than I did about any of them. That has made me a lot more forgiving in some ways. I think I’m also much more cognizant about how I approach learning about new people. I feel much more curious about they truly are, as oppose to what I want/hope them to be. I think I’m also a better friend. At least I hope so.
Well. Here’s the thing, for me. BHDM is brilliant for helping us not fall into others’ rhetorical traps. But unless you can recognize your own rhetorical patterns (and I’m working on that, but that, I think is harder) it’s still challenging to recognize the more subtle ones and not fall for them. So then the question is, now that I recognize these signs, why do I find myself attracted to something I know is potentially, at best less than ideal, and at most dangerous? What are my patterns? What do I really need? Not what will give me a dopamine hit. What will add to my life, instead of stealing my peace?
I think we were not taught to make that decision a priority. I’d like that to be different for us and younger women in the future
Love the acronym Intuitively Conscious Knowing! Women have it. We've often been programmed by society to ignore our intuition, the knowing, the awareness of the cringy ick factor. Well BHDM blew that out of the water. No thank you to the Ick!
This is such a valuable tool in screening toxic men and people of all genders. I am just starting to date after a LT abusive manipulationship. I had two good dates with a man but on the third he told me he’d just had acupuncture with a practitioner who was a woman and he got an erection during the session. I was immediately “ICK”—grossed out. I began to gaslight myself “don’t be a prude, girl!” but managed to stay true to my knowledge that he was testing me and telling me who he was. I did not go on another date with him and blocked him. Pardon the pun, but he was a “hard NO” for me after giving me the ICK.
That's what these test&apologise guys are counting on: you don't want to sound like a prude. It's difficult to react in a way that feels good in that situation (except for leaving). Great that you realised what he was doing and B2B.
My sister is a vet, and she is great shutting this kind of talk down: when a man makes sexualised comments she joyfully retells the story about how she had to castrate that huge boar one time. In every detail. You don't realise how much men don't want to hear about large balls and sharp knives together until you see their faces in that moment. No more talk about anything sexual for the rest of the day 😄
Girl I’m convinced that 99% of the whole “prude” insult is just grooming. Who decided girls and women don’t get to have an opinion about the sexual conversation they DON’T want to hear? Who benefits from silencing their choices?
Great point! This is really about consent, isn’t it? I in no way consented to having a conversation about a new acquaintance’s intimate sexual responses—rather, the subject was forced on me. Thanks for helping me see this for what is was.
I have an ICK worth sharing. After finishing reading BHDM a couple weeks ago I thought for several days wondering if there was a needle historically that perhaps I vetoed, because so many women seem to be saying part of the real magic is chemistry and attraction developing over time, but them maybe seeming a little on the boring side at first.
And most of the guys I thought of, I could think of memories that aligned with the toxic rhetorical patterns. So it was mild ICK plus no attraction = me rejecting them.
But then one guy from 12 years ago, I struggled to remember his name but did eventually. He wasn't my type physically, though he was attractive. He was extremely intelligent, a background in journalism, liberal, feminist, animal lover, so compassionate and accepting towards my chronic illness and offering to help me with things, and into meditation.
But, I didn't feel it was the right fit because he was so introverted and his dream was living up in the mountains. I was a social butterfly at that time and my gut ICK was "it will be too boring, I have a ton of friends and he is super introverted and I feel like is the type that would want me always home with him, plus being far away would be isolating." The idea of being with him just felt kind of this... depressing feeling, even though he was so exceptional.
However-- who I am NOW, that sounds amazing. Now I'm pretty introverted, and enjoy time with pets, nature, and writing/mostly working from home. It now honestly sounded GREAT.
I read through old emails from him and he passed all newly learned check points with flying colors. I started getting excited and thinking, I wonder what he's up to now, so I googled him.
My jaw drops as the google search floods with scary articles.
He's in prison for kidnapping and trying to choke his girlfriend to death when she was trying to break up with him. Thank God the swat team got there in time to save her and rush her to the hospital (she is alive and a professor, I looked).
Really really scary!! But initial sense of ICK about him being too introverted/wanting too much from me vibe was spot on. I was so shaken cuz this is a man who was so gentle and sweet, highly educated, liberal, etc. But that ICK-y feeling of.... Isolation + him wanting to much from me + seeming too boring was actually a deep and primal protection. My mom, a former therapist, said that my concerns were things that can be subtle indicators of antisocial personality disorder sort of stuff, and that I was maybe picking up on extreme possessiveness on his end-- which at the time I only mentally registered as "would be isolating/he'd want too much from me and I have a bunch of friends".
Please always listen to your instincts! This really shook me up for a day or so but ultimately I see that, even back then as a young 20-something, my lizard brain did have my back. ALWAYS trust your lizard brain, even if you feel silly or doubting!!
Holy 💩!!!! Omg wow. This story is mind blowing seriously. 😭 I like that you pointed out that feeling of "wants too much from me". I've felt that before, and then doubted myself - thinking maybe it's me and I just can't commit, maybe I'm not enough of a giver. Thank you for sharing this story, it really validates my feelings too. And sounds so scary 😭😭
I hung out with this guy as a friend for several months. I beat myself up for ages that something was wrong with me for me rejecting him for being "too boring" and thinking that, maybe *I* had a limited capacity, or whatever. But holy cow, I am not going to gaslight or beat up on myself anymore after seeing this come full circle like a true crime documentary. This group is incredible in terms of what it helps us collectively deconstruct within safe community. I am glad that you are healing!
I knew a real “nice guy” who was “doing the work”, meditated, journalled daily, did yoga, therapy, nature walks, into environmental action, very sensitive and introspective guy with fairy lights in his bedroom and a gentle tone of voice.
Two years of years ago, less than a year after the divorce from a 35 year relationship (married 32), I decided to try the dating apps. I ended up in a 9 day situationship with, I believe, a dangerous man. I didn't know anything about burned haystack yet. After so many years being neglected I was drawn to the attention and love bombing. On the last day my body reacted so strongly that I was literally convulsing and had no control over it. He left in anger. I realized afterwards that my body knew he wasn't a good guy before my brain could catch up. I believe it would have turned physically abusive pretty quick had I given him another chance. Thankfully I knew better and listened to my body. Any time I've tried to set up a profile since then I've taken it down almost immediately due to anxiety. I will have to meet my needle in the wild I think. I don't see myself trying the apps again in the future.
I ignored a conversation ick on date 2 - things had been fine on date 1 - no major issues - and he was telling me about an argument he had with his ex father in law as he was explaining why he was divorced and he used the phrase “as soon as I stick it in another woman, you can say something” and continued his story. It gave me the ick, but I let it go, thinking I was mentally fragile since I had recently lost my dog. He repeated that story with that phrase three other times! He loved saying that phrase! Ugh. He had other red flags I missed looking back now. I should have paid attention to my ick!
His comment was disgusting, objectifying women to the extreme. That's why I feel Jennie's CDA is so helpful : if you don't trust your feelings for some reason you can always analyse the words and validate your ick through logic. Then next time you trust your feelings more and more.
At the time, I didn’t really catch it. I was emotionally devastated because of my dog - I just knew it bothered me. And he said the same gross comment over and over because you could tell he just liked saying it, and I kept ignoring it. I’ve just gone back on the apps and will be much more vigilant with every word and phrase this time!
One thing I love about when we are on Substack is that we’re not in a rush to get our comments in before the window closes - so we get these long, well-thought out stories and observations. The feeling of community is SO STRONG.
Yeah, the ICK is real, and it serves a major purpose, but we've been groomed by society to ignore it. I ignored a MAJOR ick very early on in a relationship (just 3 weeks in I think) that I dismissed as my misinterpreting his meaning, when in reality, it was actually a statement revealing exactly who he was: a misogynist and a predator. I wasted a lot of time with that horrible excuse for a human, and spent a huge amount of money trying to extricate him from my life. Now when I get the ick, I listen and address it IMMEDIATELY, even for things that might seem trivial or silly.
Or Intuitively Consequential Knowledge! I was on an interview panel and got a bad vibe from a male candidate. I hated to bring it up because it was based on my intuition, nothing concrete. The men on the panel were leaning toward choosing that candidate, so I spoke up. Other women on the panel said they felt the same! One of the men said he respected our intuition. We brought in the Admin Assistant who greeted and seated candidates. We asked for her input on all the candidates. She said there was one candidate that gave her the ick. The same one that gave the other women on the panel the ick. We did not hire him. He did not take it well. He sent us all an angry message, telling us what a big mistake we made in not hiring him.
Wow! I was recently on an interview panel where I was the only woman (in a STEM field, so that isn't unusual). One candidate spent the entire interview referring to his team as "my guys" and individual members as he/him/his. Even if his whole team is comprised of men, this is 2026 and any reasonable person should know better than to be so ignorant of using inclusive language. I got the serious ICK from him and brought it up right after the interview. One of the other panelists, while not having noticed the intensely gendered language himself, immediately agreed that that was a deal breaker. The others were more in the "we all say 'you guys' sometimes, how is this any different" camp. Thankfully, this candidate withdrew himself from consideration before we had to make a decision, so I didn't have to keep pushing.
My biggest ICK was after a date that just fine. We had a nice time. I texted him to let him know that I had gotten home and he texted back photos of himself in the shower. Burned Haystack didn't exist at that time, so I texted back, "Way to ruin a nice evening" and blocked him. So gross.
I had not met this man yet, we had been talking in a dating app. We had postponed meeting because my mom had just had surgery and I was busy selling her furniture out of a storage unit. He contacted me asking what I was doing. My response “just back from the dusty storage unit and feeling filthy and exhausted. A shower will be nice.” He took the opportunity to make some sexual innuendo comment about imagining me naked. I lost my shit on him and blocked him. Do not poke the bear. (exhausted caregiver) so insulting!
Every time I read such comment I catch myself really questioning some basic level of intelligence among these guys.
And it is sooooo many of them! They all feel so entitled!!!
How absolutely horrific. I'm a care giver too and it's so rough sometimes. I can't imagine getting a comment like that after such a day!! Rage!!
Perfect response! 👏👏👏
Woah. Just… speechless…
Ew!!
OMG barf!!! 🤮🤮🤮 Way to go blocking him!!!
Thank you so much for writing this! I am 60 years old and most of my past relationship have been with men who gave me the ICK. I ignored it as society said I should and those relationships all ended disastrously. You are empowering women and making them feel heard. Thank you so much for your work!
I’m 64, and I messaged a guy “Nice looking family.” He wrote back “You have a nice body.” I messaged “Why do men thinks it’s a great opener to comment on a woman’s body?” He replied “I don’t know, but you sure have great boobies!” So I responded “You’re right, I do, and you’re never going to get to see them because you’re an ass.” (This was pre BHDM.) Now I’d just block after his first message, but it was still a little bit satisfying. :-)
OMG a middle-aged man that says “Boobies”… swoon 🙄 Every woman’s dream 😆😆😆What a terrible man!🤮
I once had a date which seemed quite fun and I was trying to convince myself I liked this guy, no obvious reason not to. I invited him back to my place as I thought I felt relaxed with him, we made out on the sofa a bit, but as soon as he left I found myself putting all my clothes straight in the washing machine. I still don’t really know why, but my body certainly knew. I messaged him to say he reminded me too much of my ex husband (the smell?) and didn’t see him again.
I was married for 30 years to a man whose behaviour and comments and body often gave me the ICK but I had to override it. It’s such a relief to be able to trust this feeling again.
I completely understand that! We always try to convince ourselves, it's so hardwired for so long! It's like the second you had time to yourself, you were able to tune into the message your body was sending you to get him far away from you!!! I was also married for a long time to a man with the exact same thing going on - we just push all of those feelings down, right? But NO MORE of that!!! You're so right - it's a huge relief and so validating too :)
I definitely felt like throwing up. So incredibly childish.
But it is so satisfying to return the snark before blocking.
KB, I too am a boomer and sooooo many men our age think that commenting on our looks/clothes is something we are looking for and grateful to receive. It's a challenge because we grew up in a culture where men pretty much always complimented on one's looks and, if not, it was a sign the guy was uninterested in you. I find that I like the men who don't focus on superficial appearances and see me (not just my outward presentation) but also am still conditioned to hear the compliment when I take the time to get dressed up. Talk about cognitive dissonance! :)
So much this! I am an elder GenX, just turned 59, and it has been very difficult to deprogram the internalized misogyny that was passed down from my mother (a pre-boomer). If my date sent me a photo from the shower, my first thought is "oh, he is home too and relaxing, and thinks I'm worth a sexy photo." And this is why I am single, because I need to stop feeding into that.
I’m in the same age bracket and totally agree with every word here. I’m so grateful to Jennie and our pyro sisters for recalibrating my internal dialogue. I no longer tolerate men who cross the burn line.
I married a man who gave me the ick and was with him for 23 years!! I’m SO mad at myself for letting him steal decades of my life. He was incredibly childish, down to talking baby talk “We go bed now?” Or, if I was talking to another man, he’d stand there and TUG AT MY SLEEVE like a 3 year old.
Since joining this group, I have discovered the following:
The ICK is my #1 guide for all dating apps and people in general. My ICK is not only an internal physical response but I also have an outward Tell that informs me. First, my eyes squint (as if to keep the visual energy from reaching me) and my head pulls back turtle-like. It is completely subconscious and not scripted in the least. However, I am becoming more aware of this lightning-fast reaction in my body and trust it as a B2B. It might take hours, days or even weeks for my intellect to catch up and be able to discern and put vocabulary to my body's response. However, I no longer give people multiple chances during that time while my brain catches up. I simply B2B. Thank you, Jennie for giving me the confidence and assurance to trust my gut and to know that I owe NO ONE an explanation for what I am feeling. You are transforming my life.
I love this. We should explore this more as a community. I make an involuntary "gack" sound if I'm in private reading something, or I roll my eyes. Putting a somatic experience to this would be extremely helpful to women especially in post-domestic abuse situations. Cuz the body experience comes before deep analysis that the brain might fight you or gaslight you if you have ptsd. Jenny I think we should have a whole article on this!!! I'm sure we've got a somatic experiencing therapist with us that could also help elaborate this principle (or maybe this lady is, she obviously knows her stuff).
I make a guu-aech sound.
I love this! My intellect does take time to catch up and while it is catching up, I need to heed my body’s response, without question. As I write this, I’m feeling a level of shock and dismay that I haven’t, in the past, immediately heeded my body’s response. The power of conditioning to minimize/disregard/question my own feeling is real!
Wow—how cool that you are aware of your own tell. I need to learn mine…
Oh wow, my body responds like this, too!!
Love this. I have a similar physical mannerism, it's like a recoil, a pulling back from a person or situation. Such amazing wisdom from the body 🙌🏼
I love that you are so in tune with your physical response. That's a very cool tell!
I had been dating this guy a while and ignored several red flags. The one I’m about to explain I ignored as well, but it actually made me downright angry. I’ve since dumped him for a plethora of reasons and learned a lot, thankfully.
Anyhow - the ICK incident that comes to mind - we were hanging out on his porch, looking at a pond that bordered his yard and a neighbour’s yard. The neighbour’s yard had a plastic female duck figurine near the edge of the water. It was the time of year that Mumma ducks are on the nest keeping their baby eggs warm. Two male ducks started swimming in the pond, and they were quacking back and forth. So I started making a conversation for them. It went kinda like this:
Duck 1: How are you today Bob?
Duck 2: I’m good, wife is on the nest with the babies.
Duck 1: Very nice. Good day for a swim.
Then they swam near the female duck figurine. And my boyfriend took over the conversation IN THE VOICE OF THE DUCK THAT I HAD CLEARLY MADE THE FATHER WHOSE WIFE WAS CARING FOR THEIR CHILDREN. He said:
Duck 2: Let’s go check out this sexy girl duck over here.
Oh great microcheating… dude I was dating had just suggested that while the wife is caring for the children, he’s got a hall pass. What a creep. There are so many moments I ask myself why I didn’t dump that guy earlier, and that is definitely one of them.
I could retire if I got a dollar everytime I’ve gotten the ick from a so-called joke. There is alot of test and apologize combined with so-called jokes. OMG get in the kitchen woman bah hahahah… Yeah no.
You are so so right. Wow did this guy ever test and apologize A LOT. I am still learning what that pattern looks like for sure…
I once had a guy friend me on Facebook asking if I wanna fuck. I was like what the hell do I know you. He was like sorry learn how to take a joke. I was like learn how to write a joke.
That was after I had enough of ignoring stupid men on the internet and before knowing to not argue with stupid men on the internet. Anyways some men like to think they are hilarious when they sexually harrass strangers.
Bad comedian should be a pattern.
Wow… just wow… what is wrong with somebody like that… ew…
Bad comedian is a subpattern of test and apologize. Though a dude saying learn how to take a joke makes it just test with bad joke. I maybe run into this more than the average lady since I perform comedy. 🤷♀️
I gotta add here, I am so thankful for all the people interacting with my comment on the duck story. It is so validating, reiterating to me that my ICK was not just my imagination being too picky!
I think that ick just mutated with a few extra lines in front and a no at the end that I won’t write out in polite company, but come on, dude. Even if you would say this in front of your close bro friends, whom he clearly does not have, it should be an easy call to keep that to yourself and never share it with anyone else, much less a potential friend and certainly not a potential partner. I couldn’t be out in public with a grown man who acted like this.
Yup. Frankly, the fact that the thought even crossed his mind, I gradually learned, is really characteristic of how he views the existence of women for his viewing pleasure. He seriously objectified women.
He did have a few close friends, but the group dynamic is really weird and unhealthy.
Out in public with him? Turned out he was the type who always walked ahead, never ever wanted to hold my hand, and over time I realized that he was ignoring me in conversation to focus on other people around us. We could be having a conversation with other people, and he’d leave me completely out of it, including with his body language turned away from me. I’d have to insert myself every time, and sometimes he’d even cut me off and take it back.
Those things, one incident in particular was one of my last straws for getting out.
Good that you got out ! I get it that you didn't trust the ick right away. Retelling these incidents I always feel that I am making a mountain out of a molehill but it's not the thing he said, it's the attitude he shows through these comments that's the problem. And Jennie gives us the words for these feelings. I have two sons in their 20s, and they have become my (internal) litmus test: if they had said something like this, would I call them out ? If the answer is yes (and the duck comment would definitely have caused a comment from me), then the adult man saying it is ready to B2B. I still feel responsible for teaching my sons (who very rarely would say anything ick-inducing) but not grown-ass men.
I love that! I too have a son in his 20’s, and he and I have regular conversations about what mutual respect is and how to treat other people. My son is so glad too that I dumped that guy. I’m glad you work with your sons too!
I'm grateful when they say these thoughts out loud. I'd rather know sooner than later what their internal value system is and whether it aligns with me or not!
Yes!!! I agree with you. If he had spoken to me like that within the first few weeks, I’d have walked away and been glad I knew so soon.
There have been other men who have shown how rotten they are quick and up front, and I’m always relieved not to have wasted my time.
Nope… this guy knew exactly how to be a good guy for long enough that I was sucked in… it took me a long time to see through it fully.
I am betting that I missed really early things though, in hindsight, and I think Burned Haystack is helping me to learn better now.
Some of them are SO GOOD at wearing a mask and acting so great in the beginning. The way patriarchy loves to label women as manipulative when in reality men are the truly manipulative ones, manipulating us into relationships based on falsehoods and fake personalities, it's so gross. I'm so grateful to Jennie for teaching rhetorical analysis, I agree I think it helps identify the warning signs so early on, even when they're pretending and wearing masks.
Yes. Society mandates that we choose better to avoid abuse. They refuse to demand that our potential partners not be abusive or liars.
And when we do, thanks to BDHM, society gaslights us into thinking we're the problem by being too picky. We just can't win with men.
Never mind cheating duck guy. You sound absolutely delightful! Wish I was there instead of that guy, I'd be cracking up!
Thank you! I was enjoying happily watching the lovely ducks and just making a nice conversation between them! I’m sure you could have added excellent and tasteful commentary too and we’d have had a great laugh together over it!
Great example. What a good metaphor for how this guy is likely to behave in a relationship
So so true - and I slowly learned that that’s exactly what he did! Near the end of the relationship he was so blatant about it that he even had an obviously established flirting pattern with a local bartender of very low character herself. And while I’m sure he’d claim it was my imagination, he did in front of me one night.
She was very obviously angry that I was with him. I’m positive he had led her to believe he was single until that night I was there with him (I realized shortly after that he had used that pattern before with other women and I just hadn’t clued in until it so obvious).
It left me wondering how many other times he’d done that behind my back during the relationship.
I quietly removed the rest of my things from his home to minimize confrontation, and very shortly after that I dumped him.
OMG that is gross! He's clearly telling you who he is (and probably didn't even realise it) and you just know that if you had said anything or pulled him up about it he would be all "but it's just a Jooookkkkkeeeee".
Yes!!! So many times he said rotten things like that, and if I showed any disgust, irritation, or called him out on it - without fail, I don’t think he ever apologized - he loved to tell me I was way too sensitive and couldn’t take a joke and everyone else would know that was just funny. The problem was always me…
In my journey of being divorced and single, I admittedly paid for a relationship coach. I had read the book Love in 90 Days by psychologist and author Diana Kirschner and then worked with a coach that trained with her. It was ridiculously expensive, I feel ashamed I paid for it! Sigh. But most importantly she teaches what I have now identified as toxic since learning BHDM- this psychologist and author teaches something to women called "Positive Paranoia " which is basically to ignore the ICK factor we feel in our gut and tell ourselves it's us imagining it, that HE isn't really that bad, to give him grace, etc. It was the worse advice I had ever been given, but I fell for it because it's in a book written by a well known psychologist, and my coach was promoting the value of this "Positive Paranoia". Needless to say, I ended up in a very traumatic relationship with a man with many, many red flags. That relationship is since over because I found BHDM. I identified many, many red flags this man had based on Jennie's rhetorical patterns AND gave myself a pat on the back for learning to trust my intuition. Let's just say he should have a red flag tatooed on his forehead! Thank you Jennie for validating what I've known all along, that my women's intuition is strong! Thank you for giving us the tools to back our intuition up. Eff Positive Paranoia and internalized misogyny. I am now using BHDM in every area of my life- it is true empowerment for women.
I hope you still don’t feel ashamed. The hardest lesson about Psychology is realizing that not all psychologists are created equal, not all are the right fit for your needs and to find the courage to keep looking for the right one or the right person, possibly not a psychologist, who can guide you to the support you need. You did that. I’d be proud of that. It’s hard to recognize what actually works and what you truly need until you’ve experienced what you don’t want or need.
I could’ve written this too, I’m in my enraged phase having been awakened to the HORRIBLE TREATEMENT I couldn’t recognize while being encouraged to IGNORE my own feelings and now I’m a whole new person after BH analyzing techniques plus a long recovery process to decentering men , wishing you well and be proud you pulled yourself up and out!
same here. I am not currently dating or even looking at the moment; I am focusing on empowering myself and am applying this rhetorical analysis to every aspect of my life. Just changed my dentist too as a result hah!
Amazing isn’t it, how far reaching the rhetorical analysis can affect and positively impact, I cut loose a friend that wouldn’t see it and wanted to defend/continue making excuses for bad male behavior. I tried to show her BHDM and she was so dismissive, I refuse to surround myself with “the old ways” for lack of a better description.
I want to know what the dentist did/said to inspire your dental B2B! 😁
Honestly before BHDM I was annoyed every time I left the dentist office but chalked it up to me being picky or impatient. After BHDM I finally realized it's the rhetorical patterns set by bothering the dentist and the culture in the office; directive/disciplinary, I'm the Prize, and very transactional dismissive interactions.
The new dentist's office has shown no toxic rhetorical patterns during any phone calls with staff, none during check in, and none during the visit today! I left feeling happy and encouraged!
*set by both the dentist and the culture in the office (not bothering)
Wow! Positive Paranoia sounds dangerous!!
Same with therapists. I was dating a guy who had made a list of the things he wanted to feel at most times. His "goals" emotionally so to speak. But the majority of them required someone else, like "desired" and "attended to". Huge red flag, which of course I ignored. But he had gone over the list with his therapist! Why didn't she point that out to him! That he was essentially putting his goals and happiness in someone else's control (and as it turned out, only using women as a means to fulfill his own needs, never actually caring about them because we were all interchangeable). She should have tasked him with reworking them to be things he could provide to himself like "desirable," etc. Sigh.
The Gift of Fear is a great book that goes into detail on this topic. Every woman can benefit from reading it!
Exactly. I was the librarian for a large moms' group, and we promoted his books heavily. The Gift of Fear (I.e., the gift is your inner intuitive knowing that something is wrong) and Protecting the Gift, and how society socializes women out of listening to their inner knowing and fear. But we're almost never wrong.
10/10 Highly recommend.
Yes! I read it recently. It’s often recommended in abuse forums I visit. Everyone should read it. It must have saved a lot of lives.
Great! Just placed a hold for it at the library
I hope you love it!
I agree. I wish they’d give it an update though. Some of examples are pretty outdated. (If it’s been revisited, LMN!)
came here to recommend this!
This guy gave me second-hand ICK. I sure hope Date 2 was cancelled!
Or vicarious ICK haha. The second she mentioned Joe Rogan I was like RUN GIRL RUN
Joe Rogan has been a helpful litmus test so often I think we should take a moment to thank him. (Jk; forget him.) In the early days of divorced life (and pre-BH) I made the mistake of falling for a guy who did listen to Rogan. I was very upfront that I thought Rogan was a dangerous propagandist and terrible example for young men. I foolishly thought I could consciousness-raise this guy. Big mistake. Nope. The Joe Rogan Breakup syndrome strikes again.
We need a rhet pattern that is just "JOE ROGAN" or "MANOSPHERE"
Jordan Peterson deserves props in that area too. :)
Almost all guys know not to admit to listening to Andrew Tate, whereas Jorpy has a thin veneer of academic respectability.
Less physically criminal himself l, but his misogynist white supermacist ideology, yikes.
This was my date!!! It took me about 36 hours to B2B - so much came out on our date and I was just mulling and mulling and Joe Rogan was a huge issue!!!
Second hand ick. I love it that term.
We need to add second-hand ICK to our group discourse language haha, that is brilliant
Had a date a couple of years ago with pretty neutral vibes (no red flags) from the profile and first texts. I normally don't have lunch dates for the first, but we were going to meet in a town I love and I planned to spend several hours there since I was going to be there anyway, so agreed lunch would work. I walked in (to a restaurant I had suggested... this was before I met BHDM and though I had very good instincts, as a writer, English teacher, and feminist who gets subtext, I missed the cue that his helplessness about googling restaurants was a bad sign). He was at the bar with a whiskey in front of him--12:30 p.m. ICK. But we sat. He wanted me to have a cocktail, which I did not. Then he REALLY wanted to order an appetizer. I did not want one. I was going to get a salad or something like that. He pressured me... Like really hardcore insistence. ICK. But I gave in! To make him shut up, because he obviously had no intention of doing so. He asked me to pick one. I was now pissed... 11 minutes into this date. I tried to discern what appealed to him, too, but he said he was "fine with anything." It came. He did not touch it. I asked him why he was not having some? He said, "I don't like avocadoes (or whatever thing was in the app)." I asked, incredulously, then why did you want to order it?" The answer, of course, was to test me to see if I'd cave in to his pressure, and much to my everlasting shame, I had! Whatever he said in response was stupid and forgettable. I looked up and caught the server's eye. She came right over--I could tell she was reading me loud and clear. I asked her to cancel my lunch order. She said, "Done." I walked out without looking back. And then had a lovely afternoon on a date with myself in bookstores and coffee shops and sitting on a bench eating a scone.
Absolutely predatory. Ick.
I like the sound of the date you had with yourself 😊
How scary! Good for you cutting it off and treating yourself. Good to do self-care to soothe your nervous system.
OMG what an ass. I love that you just got up and left.
Interesting. I have a very similar acronym for the ick. Intuitively Conscious Knowing. I have an entire scale, which is a bit too complicated to explain here, but at its simplest, everyone starts at zero and either earns or loses points. Someone who is a friend or with good recommendations starts off positive and basically needs to be fairly terrible to get into negative points. Every ick is a negative point. One ick is not necessarily a dealbreaker. Strange how fast some people, mostly men, rack those ICKs up.
At this point in my life, one ick is enough for me to block and burn. As a Gen Joneser, I don't have time to FAFO. But I love your acronym for sure!
Brilliant—i like this renaming of ick as well!
I want to know more about this scoring system!
Ha! It’s mostly subconscious. I don’t actively, routinely keep score like that. However, in any decision where I feel muddled, conflicted or feel that I’m possibly being gas-lit and want to be more clear-headed I make lists, charts and diagrams. In the case of dating relationships, it’s a combination, because it can be hard to tell why I’m not thinking clearly. Are they SUPER HOT? Unusually talented? Smart? Are they giving me attention I’ve been craving, but otherwise, I’m not feeling it? Have we been to all of the same concerts? Is he fulfilling a desire I have for myself but, haven’t attempted? For instance, I use to date musicians before I realized I could just pick up a guitar, and a bass and start my own band. Or I could write my own book. Make my own art. Or start my own company. The scale isn’t the way I make decisions, Just a way to make sense of what I already know.
(ETA: the intuition is conscious, the scale is subconscious until I write/draw it out. I know that sounded contradictory.)
If you were a dating coach, I'd actually want to work with you. Profound!
If by dating coach, you mean someone who will commiserate with you over Death by Chocolate, a crazy decadent dinner, or a ridiculous pampering treatment, then I am your girl. I think I’m qualified to remind my friends I think they deserve the best. I offer no insight into good partners other than to also be a friend to their partners when they find a good one. The only coaching I’ve ever been able to do is point out that someone smiles more when they are with that person than they do without them. Does that count?
Love it!
I love this sensemaking you have got going on. Charts and diagrams, brilliant!
I actually made/am making a few of these diagrams into an art. The two that got me started were Venn diagrams of real people I had relationships with and why I found them attractive, and fantasy crushes I’ve had and why I found them attractive. The thing I’ve found most interesting, is that ultimately I learned much more about myself than I did about any of them. That has made me a lot more forgiving in some ways. I think I’m also much more cognizant about how I approach learning about new people. I feel much more curious about they truly are, as oppose to what I want/hope them to be. I think I’m also a better friend. At least I hope so.
I am in awe of this, how you explore and get curious, build empathy and inner and outer knowing into your process, art and science, Incredible.
Well. Here’s the thing, for me. BHDM is brilliant for helping us not fall into others’ rhetorical traps. But unless you can recognize your own rhetorical patterns (and I’m working on that, but that, I think is harder) it’s still challenging to recognize the more subtle ones and not fall for them. So then the question is, now that I recognize these signs, why do I find myself attracted to something I know is potentially, at best less than ideal, and at most dangerous? What are my patterns? What do I really need? Not what will give me a dopamine hit. What will add to my life, instead of stealing my peace?
I think we were not taught to make that decision a priority. I’d like that to be different for us and younger women in the future
Love the acronym Intuitively Conscious Knowing! Women have it. We've often been programmed by society to ignore our intuition, the knowing, the awareness of the cringy ick factor. Well BHDM blew that out of the water. No thank you to the Ick!
Please write about your scale in your substack! 🙏
This is such a valuable tool in screening toxic men and people of all genders. I am just starting to date after a LT abusive manipulationship. I had two good dates with a man but on the third he told me he’d just had acupuncture with a practitioner who was a woman and he got an erection during the session. I was immediately “ICK”—grossed out. I began to gaslight myself “don’t be a prude, girl!” but managed to stay true to my knowledge that he was testing me and telling me who he was. I did not go on another date with him and blocked him. Pardon the pun, but he was a “hard NO” for me after giving me the ICK.
That's what these test&apologise guys are counting on: you don't want to sound like a prude. It's difficult to react in a way that feels good in that situation (except for leaving). Great that you realised what he was doing and B2B.
My sister is a vet, and she is great shutting this kind of talk down: when a man makes sexualised comments she joyfully retells the story about how she had to castrate that huge boar one time. In every detail. You don't realise how much men don't want to hear about large balls and sharp knives together until you see their faces in that moment. No more talk about anything sexual for the rest of the day 😄
Omg i love your sister—she is a BADASS!
Haha, that's gold. I wonder how we could use that example, without being a Vet
>manipulationship
This word needs to enter the general lexicon 👏
Yeah, I love that too. Manipulationship - that's gold!!
Girl I’m convinced that 99% of the whole “prude” insult is just grooming. Who decided girls and women don’t get to have an opinion about the sexual conversation they DON’T want to hear? Who benefits from silencing their choices?
Great point! This is really about consent, isn’t it? I in no way consented to having a conversation about a new acquaintance’s intimate sexual responses—rather, the subject was forced on me. Thanks for helping me see this for what is was.
I have an ICK worth sharing. After finishing reading BHDM a couple weeks ago I thought for several days wondering if there was a needle historically that perhaps I vetoed, because so many women seem to be saying part of the real magic is chemistry and attraction developing over time, but them maybe seeming a little on the boring side at first.
And most of the guys I thought of, I could think of memories that aligned with the toxic rhetorical patterns. So it was mild ICK plus no attraction = me rejecting them.
But then one guy from 12 years ago, I struggled to remember his name but did eventually. He wasn't my type physically, though he was attractive. He was extremely intelligent, a background in journalism, liberal, feminist, animal lover, so compassionate and accepting towards my chronic illness and offering to help me with things, and into meditation.
But, I didn't feel it was the right fit because he was so introverted and his dream was living up in the mountains. I was a social butterfly at that time and my gut ICK was "it will be too boring, I have a ton of friends and he is super introverted and I feel like is the type that would want me always home with him, plus being far away would be isolating." The idea of being with him just felt kind of this... depressing feeling, even though he was so exceptional.
However-- who I am NOW, that sounds amazing. Now I'm pretty introverted, and enjoy time with pets, nature, and writing/mostly working from home. It now honestly sounded GREAT.
I read through old emails from him and he passed all newly learned check points with flying colors. I started getting excited and thinking, I wonder what he's up to now, so I googled him.
My jaw drops as the google search floods with scary articles.
He's in prison for kidnapping and trying to choke his girlfriend to death when she was trying to break up with him. Thank God the swat team got there in time to save her and rush her to the hospital (she is alive and a professor, I looked).
Really really scary!! But initial sense of ICK about him being too introverted/wanting too much from me vibe was spot on. I was so shaken cuz this is a man who was so gentle and sweet, highly educated, liberal, etc. But that ICK-y feeling of.... Isolation + him wanting to much from me + seeming too boring was actually a deep and primal protection. My mom, a former therapist, said that my concerns were things that can be subtle indicators of antisocial personality disorder sort of stuff, and that I was maybe picking up on extreme possessiveness on his end-- which at the time I only mentally registered as "would be isolating/he'd want too much from me and I have a bunch of friends".
Please always listen to your instincts! This really shook me up for a day or so but ultimately I see that, even back then as a young 20-something, my lizard brain did have my back. ALWAYS trust your lizard brain, even if you feel silly or doubting!!
Holy 💩!!!! Omg wow. This story is mind blowing seriously. 😭 I like that you pointed out that feeling of "wants too much from me". I've felt that before, and then doubted myself - thinking maybe it's me and I just can't commit, maybe I'm not enough of a giver. Thank you for sharing this story, it really validates my feelings too. And sounds so scary 😭😭
I hung out with this guy as a friend for several months. I beat myself up for ages that something was wrong with me for me rejecting him for being "too boring" and thinking that, maybe *I* had a limited capacity, or whatever. But holy cow, I am not going to gaslight or beat up on myself anymore after seeing this come full circle like a true crime documentary. This group is incredible in terms of what it helps us collectively deconstruct within safe community. I am glad that you are healing!
Holy macaroons.
I knew a real “nice guy” who was “doing the work”, meditated, journalled daily, did yoga, therapy, nature walks, into environmental action, very sensitive and introspective guy with fairy lights in his bedroom and a gentle tone of voice.
A pity he wanted to kill me.
That's terrifying beyond belief. I'm so sorry you went through anything like this.
Two years of years ago, less than a year after the divorce from a 35 year relationship (married 32), I decided to try the dating apps. I ended up in a 9 day situationship with, I believe, a dangerous man. I didn't know anything about burned haystack yet. After so many years being neglected I was drawn to the attention and love bombing. On the last day my body reacted so strongly that I was literally convulsing and had no control over it. He left in anger. I realized afterwards that my body knew he wasn't a good guy before my brain could catch up. I believe it would have turned physically abusive pretty quick had I given him another chance. Thankfully I knew better and listened to my body. Any time I've tried to set up a profile since then I've taken it down almost immediately due to anxiety. I will have to meet my needle in the wild I think. I don't see myself trying the apps again in the future.
That’s really scary. Hugs.
Wow, that's a strong bodily response. So amazing that the body instinctively knows what to do.
I ignored a conversation ick on date 2 - things had been fine on date 1 - no major issues - and he was telling me about an argument he had with his ex father in law as he was explaining why he was divorced and he used the phrase “as soon as I stick it in another woman, you can say something” and continued his story. It gave me the ick, but I let it go, thinking I was mentally fragile since I had recently lost my dog. He repeated that story with that phrase three other times! He loved saying that phrase! Ugh. He had other red flags I missed looking back now. I should have paid attention to my ick!
His comment was disgusting, objectifying women to the extreme. That's why I feel Jennie's CDA is so helpful : if you don't trust your feelings for some reason you can always analyse the words and validate your ick through logic. Then next time you trust your feelings more and more.
At the time, I didn’t really catch it. I was emotionally devastated because of my dog - I just knew it bothered me. And he said the same gross comment over and over because you could tell he just liked saying it, and I kept ignoring it. I’ve just gone back on the apps and will be much more vigilant with every word and phrase this time!
I got second hand ICK reading that. What a crass way he talked 🤢😟 Yuck! Glad you got away from him.
Right? Thinking back, I’m like yeah - right there - I could have saved myself weeks of “this guy is an idiot” but thinking it was just me.
One thing I love about when we are on Substack is that we’re not in a rush to get our comments in before the window closes - so we get these long, well-thought out stories and observations. The feeling of community is SO STRONG.
Yes! 😍
Yes, agreed. It feels a lot more relaxed.
👏 👏 👏 🎯 💯
💯
Yeah, the ICK is real, and it serves a major purpose, but we've been groomed by society to ignore it. I ignored a MAJOR ick very early on in a relationship (just 3 weeks in I think) that I dismissed as my misinterpreting his meaning, when in reality, it was actually a statement revealing exactly who he was: a misogynist and a predator. I wasted a lot of time with that horrible excuse for a human, and spent a huge amount of money trying to extricate him from my life. Now when I get the ick, I listen and address it IMMEDIATELY, even for things that might seem trivial or silly.
I'm so sorry you had all that mess.
You bring up another good point: getting these awful men out of our lives can be expensive. B2B is powerful for so many reasons.
Or Intuitively Consequential Knowledge! I was on an interview panel and got a bad vibe from a male candidate. I hated to bring it up because it was based on my intuition, nothing concrete. The men on the panel were leaning toward choosing that candidate, so I spoke up. Other women on the panel said they felt the same! One of the men said he respected our intuition. We brought in the Admin Assistant who greeted and seated candidates. We asked for her input on all the candidates. She said there was one candidate that gave her the ick. The same one that gave the other women on the panel the ick. We did not hire him. He did not take it well. He sent us all an angry message, telling us what a big mistake we made in not hiring him.
Wow! I was recently on an interview panel where I was the only woman (in a STEM field, so that isn't unusual). One candidate spent the entire interview referring to his team as "my guys" and individual members as he/him/his. Even if his whole team is comprised of men, this is 2026 and any reasonable person should know better than to be so ignorant of using inclusive language. I got the serious ICK from him and brought it up right after the interview. One of the other panelists, while not having noticed the intensely gendered language himself, immediately agreed that that was a deal breaker. The others were more in the "we all say 'you guys' sometimes, how is this any different" camp. Thankfully, this candidate withdrew himself from consideration before we had to make a decision, so I didn't have to keep pushing.