Even at senior age, knowing what I know about men, I label myself as ”not wife material” and bash myself for my partner choices. With reasons, lots of reasons.
Interesting how this one article illuminated that. I thought I was seeing things clearly.
Knowing what we know, not being “wife material” is a badge of honor. One could get married without being “wife material” and by definition of that term and with what we’re learning, that marriage will likely be healthier.
Thank you so much for this. I remember being in my 30’s and going to a Jewish matchmaker in SF. I was 135 at the time and basically “so what” but that’s a whole other story. She told me that I needed to lose an extra 20 lbs to really get the right dating pool 🙄
Honestly, where is the “it is you not me”. Oh yeah, the patriarchy and expectation that women should just be happy with what they get. It’s never the man that’s the problem.
This is great. I remember whining to my cousin « what does it mean that my boyfriend won’t give me compliments ? » her response « it means you’re willing to go out with someone who won’t give you compliments. » he was terrible and it didn’t actually MEAN anything except he was terrible
"I can't make a person into what I want. I can go find a person who is already what I want." We need to make t-shirts that say this and start giving them to every girl as soon as she turns 12.
" I can go find a person who is already what I want" - sorry but no. Women are not entitled to "good men" (similarly to the fact men are not entitled to women, which I believe, you agree with). It's not the same than saying "I deserve to be out of a toxic relationship". We are all evolving and nothing, absolutely nothing guarantees that all "deserving" women will find a "good" men. What if there are simply not enough of them?
Women are absolutely entitled to good men. You’re right that maybe there aren’t enough of them but that shouldn’t stop any woman from trying to find one. Settling for someone you’re unhappy with (sad) or attempting to change someone into what you’re looking for (impossible) are both worse alternatives to being single forever.
True, not everyone will find a compatible partner. (A good enough match, not a perfect one)
But: You shouldn’t commit to a fundamentally incompatible situation and try to reshape their values or personality to make a relationship work.
It's not entitlement to want someone who "fits" you well. And yes, that's realistically not going to happen to everyone, at all times. Que sera sera :-)
I’m so grateful for your work and I’m also grateful that I am just built the way I’m built. I had a terrific BS detector from day one. I remember being a little tiny kid and with some regularity, hearing an adult assert something and thinking, “Yeah, that doesn’t sound right to me.” I have been stubborn and contrary from day one and I pretty much have always been grateful for it!
Me too! I was called precocious, challenging, wilful, rebellious, stubborn and everything else they could think of when, in fact, I was just responding to what I knew was bullshit. Sadly, still didn’t keep me from marrying an asshole. I learned to mistrust my gut and gaslight myself. But that’s a story for another time. Side note: I’m happily partnered with a great needle now, so never too late. 💖
This is a great follow up to the ICK essays. We’ve been conditioned to do emotional labor for men, to give them the benefit of a doubt, to give them grace. We haven’t been taught to have boundaries and recognize our own boundaries for how we’re treated
This! I stayed with an unfaithful husband for 12 years because I gave him grace and did the emotional labor without creating any boundary or expectation for him to do his part in that work. I wish I’d figured out these pearls of wisdom earlier!
I accidentally hit send looking for the right word, re-victimization. He probably made you feel sorry for him and that his cheating was your fault somehow, amirite.
I love this question since, when I was on the apps, I did wonder if some of the things I wrote in the “about me” section made me seem too nice or a soft mark. Or maybe that picture of me in that dress sends the wrong message (even though I do wear dresses and the photo was from “real life”). These thoughts went unnoticed until I became conscious with Jennie’s and the pyro sisters’ help. It’s a process! 🔥
It could be, I think. If you write you just are newly widowed and getting back on your feet, you are leaving yourself open to predators. Unlike Jenny, even though I agree with B2B and practice it, I learned in my healing as a survivor of narcissistic abuse my OWN ROLE.
I am technically widowed, but he died over 2 years after we’d separated, and I’d been sick to death of him for years before that. I realized from multiple comments I got that men assumed I was still grieving for someone I never should have married. So, I started putting single.
All of this is true, and so refreshing. BUT-- toxic people in general do see if you hold boundaries over little benign things. Will you give into something you previously said no to because you are too polite and it's "no big deal" or do you hold your boundaries even if it's a little awkward/uncomfortable? Of course-- NONE of this is our fault, and we are also conditioned/brainwashed to be polite-- but-- you do help make yourself more boring/unappealing to the toxic people if they see from the get go that you are someone that can't be pushed around/manipulated. But this is something to be practiced in all contexts, not just dating. Be safe my loves!
I agree Jade. There is nothing wrong with any of us, that makes us attract toxic men; the problem comes that some women (myself included) don't spot the toxic men until we've been hurt. That isn't our fault, it's just that women (in particular) have been taught that we need to be nice to everyone, or indoctrinated to believe that "it's just a joke" when a man makes a test & apologise type comment! Women who can spot the toxic men won't tolerate the icky behaviour, so the interaction ends much sooner.
I guess it's a bit like if someone said "why do I get sunburned when I go on holiday but other people don't?" If you were never told about wearing suncream, or if as a kid someone said "the redness isn't anything to worry about, you need to go red before you get a nice sun tan" then you might keep doing the same thing until you finally noticed the pattern and changed your behaviour to stop getting sun burned! BUT, if your parent told you to wear sun cream and avoid going on the beach between 11am-3pm, you'd know how to avoid getting sun burn all your life. It's not the sunburnt person's fault they kept getting burned, they just didn't know how to protect themselves, or were following advice they were given growing up.
So, no blame on women who've taken a while to learn they need to B2B to avoid toxic men (or ☀️ B2B to avoid sun burn!!)! Thank goodness we've now got the info we need to make better dating decisions!
[Apologies for the slightly dodgy analogy; the weather has been terrible here in the UK for months, but this weekend it's going to be a heatwave! ☀️🎉☺️⛱️
I like your analogy 💗 as a Gen X kid who was literally told to burn as a means of getting a tan. We even had iodine and baby oil to facilitate the process. Like we had Cosmo magazine to facilitate our internalized patriarchy. Etc. Enjoy your weekend my beautiful pyro sisters. Xx
Great analogy! Thank you. A lot of my “friends” would tell me I was too this or that and that’s why I was getting mistreated. So there’s some women out there who are door mats and willing to defend assholes. Beware of them too.
Please don't do that. It still puts the onus on women "well if your boundaries were stronger, he wouldn't have taken advantage. Why did you let yourself get pushed around?"
Yes, we can educate ourselves with this method to spot things easier and earlier; yes, we can practice setting boundaries in all contexts; and yes, men will still take advantage and will find ways to do these things.
I didn't say that and went out of the way to clarify that I wasn't saying that. I am allowed to express something that has helped me and kept me safe. I stand by what I wrote because it might help someone. Holding boundaries is one of the most powerful ways to push back on the patriarchy and the whole purpose of this method is self-empowerment and women protecting each other.
I know you did, and I appreciate where you're coming from. What I've experienced is this: I said no. I said this is what I want/this is what I don't want. I set very clear boundaries. And a man still did those things anyways. That's the problem I have with women saying "if you get better at setting boundaries, you'll be safer." That's true up to a point, but when boundaries get crossed it's not women's fault for not having better boundaries. I set boundaries, very clear ones, and men still did these things. So is the fault mine that my boundaries weren't strong enough, or was it his fault that he couldn't respect my boundaries?
Christina, I hear what you are saying. I’m not saying that it’s a perfect method. I’m just saying it’s a tool in the arsenal. I have also experienced tons of creeps that you could be screaming no and it doesn’t matter. I am not saying that. And, I am truly sorry that that happened to you. I am of course aware that boundaries do not fix it all and someone could be the most resourced person on the planet and get harassed. I was only sharing because it took me so, so long to learn to lean into letting there be tension/discomfort in social interactions rather than “caving” to be polite. What I was trying to explain is more like, wearing a seatbelt. It’s not going to protect you from someone driving head on into the oncoming lane; but— it’ll help in more minor circumstances.
Yes. We're on the same page, and I'm sorry you experienced these things too. It's horrific and life-altering. I've had people (women. women who declare themselves feminists) tell me that if only my boundaries were stronger, if only I was less polite/more bitchy, these things wouldn't have happened to me/why did I let these things happen to me, I should have been stronger or more forceful.
Your seatbelt analogy is a good one. But sometimes we can wear a seatbelt and someone still decides to ram our car at 100 miles an hour. And that's not our fault.
Christina, I agree completely. I am sorry that my comment initially triggered you, and I understand why it did. For me, having survived severe abuse from my partner, the boundaries stuff I discussed has slowly helped teach my nervous system a safer way to interact in the world. Before I had the rhetorical patterns, it was the only tool I had for many years (learned from therapy). It was the foundation of building a new life for me. I feel I am treated better at work, at parties, and with friends, since I stopped people pleasing. I want all women to have every tool they can get their hands on. We will still never be completely safe, and that is never, ever our fault, when something bad happens. All we can do is be there for our sisters and hold them in love when they are harmed. I was made to feel a lot of things were my fault, so I know how terrible that feels, and I would never want to make someone else feel that way. I hope you have a good day :)
I'm really sorry men behaved that way to you (to almost all of us).
Boundaries aren't a protection from someone behaving horribly towards us. Outside of extraordinary circumstances, they stop someone doing it to us twice.
As a random example - 'If you cheat on me, I will leave' isn't the boundary: the boundary is actually leaving. And swiping left on men whose profiles say 'see how things go/meet people for fun activities/high sex drive', not going on date 3 if he flirts with the waitress on date 2, break up when you learn he cheated in past relarionships, etc.
I she did none of those things, and he serially cheated, it still wouldn't be her fault in any way shape or form. He's 100% to blame and a POS.
However, walking away after the first time would have protected her from being cheated on the second time.
As women, we're taught to "give grace" on small things, and I think what this commentator is saying us that we have to start enforcing boundaries that in the past would have been considered unreasonable or too petty.
Narcissists do not respect boundaries. When a clearly stated boundary is disrespected by a narc or anyone we must follow thru with an action. That can mean end a relationship, walk out of a room or the environment, or B2B. A boundary only works with followed up action.
Please don't say things like this. Some women are trapped in relationships and don't have an option to leave. It is not as if they are "going back for more" as you say. By saying something like this, it makes those women feel responsible for their own victimhood, which no woman ever is.
As someone who has survived intimate partner abuse that nearly took my life-- this is something I tell to literally every female I am close to because I've seen it protect women not only from toxic partners, but also toxic bosses and coworkers. If someone misinterprets my words as victim blaming, so be it, a small price to pay for spreading my truth. Thank you for your validation, Brittney.
As a queer woman, I have survived intimate partner abuse from both men (2) and women (1), the latter of which had me suicidal and is still taking me more than a year to recover from. My therapist keeps reminding me that I didn’t do anything wrong, and that toxic and unsafe people are just very skilled at what they do: prey on people in lots of ways and situations. And it’s not uncommon for *both* parties to be unaware of the patterns being played out.
Learning rhetorical patterns in men’s behavior can also apply to women, even if not completely. Setting and holding boundaries is definitely a great skill to have and practice along with learning to spot the dangerous tells. I will take any tool in the toolbox that helps keep me safe in *all* relationships. 😊
I appreciate your advice. Setting boundaries is a form of blocking irl especially if the relationship involves someone you can’t just cut out of your life like a coworker or relative. It’s still difficult for me to not be polite and remain silent about toxic behavior from men. That is a difficult habit to break for some of us raised in the 50s-60s. I hope younger women are being raised by women who were not as indoctrinated as I was or found ways to overcome it.
It’s tiring being vigilant when toxicity is rampant; from the repairman calling me “ma’am” in a condescending manner while mansplaining, to the male employee who, after 2 weeks working in the company I founded 46 years ago, believes that he knows more about everything than I do.
Yes. I agree completely. Those little micro aggressions like your repair man are… exhausting. It’s no wonder so many more women have chronic fatigue syndrome than men… it’s like 10-1 I think lol.
Jennies book is here to help women understand the signals. Thats the whole point of Burned Haystack, she has a method to deal with this very thing you are speaking of. The point of this article is it is not our fault. Period. No buts. Thats the radical nature of this message. We say to ourselves, It is not our fault we have dated toxic men. And thats it, done, no other comment, it is a complete sentence.
I was telling a friend of mine, who's male, about a horrible date I once had. He said, "Where do you find these guys?" I said, "wrong question, you should be asking, how are men so good at hiding their true nature?"
Yes! I can't tell you how often a guy friend has replied this to me after I recount yet another bad experience with a guy. I would be like, "Um, I find them everywhere, because they ARE everywhere. There's way too big a percentage of your fellow guys who are not good people."
In my 72 years, I've rarely, if ever, heard a man ask himself why he was "attracting bad women". When I asked a couple of male friends why that was, they said, "There are no bad women." Ha!
In any case, your reply was spot on, Jennie. It's not that women are "attracting bad men", we just need to employ "block and burn" on dating apps and in real life so that we are with men who meet our standards.
For many men, admitting to attracting 'bad' women would mean he is less than great. Can't be! Usually the only women who are 'bad' are those who reject them (either right away or after separation).
I had a realization about this at some point, how I, and society, was making it my fault. After a breakup with another man who dropped the mask of being an emotionally available, securely attached person. I was telling my friend about the emotional neglect and abuse and she said, trying to be helpful, “why do you think you attract guys like that?”
I was finally able to stand up for myself and call that out as victim blaming, as using spirituality to bypass the very real abuse and the skills men have in pretending to be healthy in the beginning.
BHDM is helping me read between the lines and maybe next time I’ll find my needle.
I'm glad you saw it for the victim blaming that it was ❤️ it was not your fault.
It's the hardest when these things come from other women, especially women who declare themselves feminists or supporters of women. I've experienced it too and it's a destabilizing nightmare.
Yes. This is the relief women need: his behavior is not evidence that something is wrong with you. Low-capacity, unavailable, manipulative, or harmful men do not only arrive for women with some secret defect.
And I also think many women can feel that this answer, while deeply necessary, is not the whole picture. Because once he arrives, something happens inside the woman too.
Unresolved attachment wounds and imprints can shape what the nervous system predicts in his presence: whether inconsistency feels familiar, whether intensity feels like connection, whether a boundary feels dangerous, whether leaving feels less safe than staying.
That is not self-blame. It is agency without blame.
He is responsible for his behavior. And a woman deserves to understand what has been organizing access to her life, body, attention, and future once the signal is already there.
I would also encourage women to pay close attention to their relationships with their FRIENDS -- you probably have so many wonderful warm close flexible cup-filling relationships in your life. You want to remind yourself you DO have a great picker and you are a great builder!!
Yes, toxic men are attracted to everyone because they are opportunists. Their predatory skills become finely tuned, and that is the reason “test and apologize” is too freaking common.
While there are the early rhetorical “sexual innuendo” tests, there are all kinds of tests designed to weaponize our empathy that we would miss or “fail” if we were not taught what to look for.
I learned in a self defense class, taught by a police officer, that a man will drop a pen (or anything) to see if a woman will pick it up for him, and that tells him she is eager to help an adult male and becomes a prime target.
I was walking out of a coffee shop behind three male coworkers. A guy shuffling cards at a table near the door was clearly studying me. He waited until the three men walked by, then threw the entire deck at my feet, no doubt thinking I would stop to help him play 52 pick up and become separated from my friends.
I recognized what he was doing and didn’t break stride, walking over the top of his cards. His jaw dropped, he acted outraged. This was a manipulation, partly because he underestimated my awareness and partly to vilify and guilt me for not being “helpful.”
The test and apologize behavior/rhetoric is created by predators. I am not dating but I eagerly spend time with Burn The Haystack because I love learning how to recognize all the strategies of predators.
Thank you for this. I had no idea people/men did this sort of thing deliberately. I'm exactly the sort of person who would get sucked in by such a tactic.
The only thing “wrong” with women, is we let the toxic men into our lives, and let them stay far too long. That’s why learning to block them quickly (even in person) is so crucial!
And doing that IS healing. It reprograms your own past wounds, gives you time to think about WTF you have been trained by society and past experiences to accept and even deal with your own attachment wounds from seeing these patterns play out in our own families.
I really am so glad I found this page. I think the point Jennie makes in her book is that this is all so important on a grand scale. Women solve problems for everyone because evolution wise, we need to make a safe and abundant environment for our children. On that note, in the film and television industry, almost everything has the premise of a strong provider/protector who needs to rescue his daughter or his hapless wife. Therefore, we’ve been conditioned to see men, who like to think of themselves as providers and protectors, according to their chosen view.
What they really are is a nuisance. In pre-history, most human settlements were matriarchal. The men lived in close knit hunter enclaves and mainly only interacted with women for religious rituals and procreation on a purely opportunistic level.
All of BHDM has helped so much make sense of why does this (something on a profile or non dating situation) come off like it’s _____ every time. It’s bc it is!
I also had a narcissistic mother who has mental illness and additionally needed to work on what that situation did to affect my perception of things, example healthy boundaries.
I was never sensitive to when they were being violated, I was being desensitized to abuse/abusive behavior. Grateful that has reset and thankful this method is so fricking supportive to that! 🩵
I did this work before discovering BHDM. I can see some women learning the method, then seeing the root of not just social and cultural influences involved but individual influences that need special attention and do the work to improve quality of life, work, and self love.
I did the work, but my sister is against therapy and believes in 'seeing the good in everyone'.
We watch Married At First Sight together, and thanks to BHDM and other things, I'm now good at spotting the toxic men before their mask comes off. Unfortunately, she'll interpret everything they say in the most positive light possible. :'( A man saying he wants a Bonnie & Clyde/bail me out of jail/ride or die, she reads as being very loyal (rather than priming a woman not to leave, no matter how badly he treats her).
She is doing absolutely nothing wrong - she's a kind, ethical person who judges everyone else's motives by her own. Knowing on a visceral level we have the right to be treated wonderfully, and the tools to assess who will do so, are invaluable.
It's in no way whatsoever our fault if we don't have those advantages - it's 100% on toxic men not to cause harm. I'm so glad to have found BHDM and other helpful things, though!
Thank you so much for the huge amount of time and effort you put into this, you are so generous with your time and it is making a difference.
I studied online (and pre-internet classifieds in print media) dating for years before I became single and used those tools.
I was ruthless with anyone who gave any clues to poor character, and had very high standards with a full Clarice Cliff dinner set to bring to the table.
I had a small amount of harmless dates, and then met the most lovely man who I have blissfully lived with for over a decade now.
I share your wonderful resources with enthusiasm, and am somewhat surprised at the internalised misogyny that is rampant in middle class suburban Australia.
Onwards and upwards, we are still making real progress.
Heather I live in Australia and agree with you entirely about the middle class internalised misogyny. I moved from the UK 30 years ago, even though I was only in my 20s I could recognise even at a young age the chauvinism in men.
Australia does seem very macho. However, I have seen in the USA, that many women favor their own sons over their daughters. I was raised by a Mom like that. My brother was allowed to stay out all night and never cleaned up after himself. Whereas if I did anything she didn’t like, I would be locked out of the house.
I think a lot of men grow up entitled like that. It’s probably how my Mom was raised herself. We as a society have to end this cycle of favoritism for the “golden boy” son over our daughters. I still see this treatment in the community where I live. It’s very normalized in the USA and probably in other countries too.
I noticed a feeling of relief after reading this piece.
Something like, "I was never the problem."
Even at senior age, knowing what I know about men, I label myself as ”not wife material” and bash myself for my partner choices. With reasons, lots of reasons.
Interesting how this one article illuminated that. I thought I was seeing things clearly.
Knowing what we know, not being “wife material” is a badge of honor. One could get married without being “wife material” and by definition of that term and with what we’re learning, that marriage will likely be healthier.
Women are vastly more capable at inhabiting multiple perspectives. Let’s not weaponize that talent against ourselves.
💯
Yes, same.
Thank you so much for this. I remember being in my 30’s and going to a Jewish matchmaker in SF. I was 135 at the time and basically “so what” but that’s a whole other story. She told me that I needed to lose an extra 20 lbs to really get the right dating pool 🙄
Honestly, where is the “it is you not me”. Oh yeah, the patriarchy and expectation that women should just be happy with what they get. It’s never the man that’s the problem.
This is great. I remember whining to my cousin « what does it mean that my boyfriend won’t give me compliments ? » her response « it means you’re willing to go out with someone who won’t give you compliments. » he was terrible and it didn’t actually MEAN anything except he was terrible
This is the shift I had to make too. I can’t make a person into what I want. I can go find a person who is already what I want.
"I can't make a person into what I want. I can go find a person who is already what I want." We need to make t-shirts that say this and start giving them to every girl as soon as she turns 12.
" I can go find a person who is already what I want" - sorry but no. Women are not entitled to "good men" (similarly to the fact men are not entitled to women, which I believe, you agree with). It's not the same than saying "I deserve to be out of a toxic relationship". We are all evolving and nothing, absolutely nothing guarantees that all "deserving" women will find a "good" men. What if there are simply not enough of them?
Women are absolutely entitled to good men. You’re right that maybe there aren’t enough of them but that shouldn’t stop any woman from trying to find one. Settling for someone you’re unhappy with (sad) or attempting to change someone into what you’re looking for (impossible) are both worse alternatives to being single forever.
True, not everyone will find a compatible partner. (A good enough match, not a perfect one)
But: You shouldn’t commit to a fundamentally incompatible situation and try to reshape their values or personality to make a relationship work.
It's not entitlement to want someone who "fits" you well. And yes, that's realistically not going to happen to everyone, at all times. Que sera sera :-)
✌️
Well with that logic, who decides which women get the “good” ones?
Karma (law of causes and consequences). From spiritual point of view, we have exactly the experiences required for our evolution.
I’m so grateful for your work and I’m also grateful that I am just built the way I’m built. I had a terrific BS detector from day one. I remember being a little tiny kid and with some regularity, hearing an adult assert something and thinking, “Yeah, that doesn’t sound right to me.” I have been stubborn and contrary from day one and I pretty much have always been grateful for it!
I’ve had that detector too. But I was conditioned to forgive and forget. It’s hard to be aware of it all but still struggle to set boundaries.
People TRIED to condition me, but see above (contrary and stubborn)
Me too! I was called precocious, challenging, wilful, rebellious, stubborn and everything else they could think of when, in fact, I was just responding to what I knew was bullshit. Sadly, still didn’t keep me from marrying an asshole. I learned to mistrust my gut and gaslight myself. But that’s a story for another time. Side note: I’m happily partnered with a great needle now, so never too late. 💖
This is a great follow up to the ICK essays. We’ve been conditioned to do emotional labor for men, to give them the benefit of a doubt, to give them grace. We haven’t been taught to have boundaries and recognize our own boundaries for how we’re treated
This! I stayed with an unfaithful husband for 12 years because I gave him grace and did the emotional labor without creating any boundary or expectation for him to do his part in that work. I wish I’d figured out these pearls of wisdom earlier!
I heard a great line today: “Anticipating a woman’s emotional labor is currency for men who have nothing to offer.” Isn’t that the truth? 🔥
I accidentally hit send looking for the right word, re-victimization. He probably made you feel sorry for him and that his cheating was your fault somehow, amirite.
I love this question since, when I was on the apps, I did wonder if some of the things I wrote in the “about me” section made me seem too nice or a soft mark. Or maybe that picture of me in that dress sends the wrong message (even though I do wear dresses and the photo was from “real life”). These thoughts went unnoticed until I became conscious with Jennie’s and the pyro sisters’ help. It’s a process! 🔥
Jennie and the Pyro Sisters! 😅 I love this.
Learning to burn!! 😂🔥
Learning to Burn to the tune of Tom Petty’s Learning to Fly.
The Sisterhood of Pyros will certainly Not Back Down 👍
Band name! <3
It could be, I think. If you write you just are newly widowed and getting back on your feet, you are leaving yourself open to predators. Unlike Jenny, even though I agree with B2B and practice it, I learned in my healing as a survivor of narcissistic abuse my OWN ROLE.
I am technically widowed, but he died over 2 years after we’d separated, and I’d been sick to death of him for years before that. I realized from multiple comments I got that men assumed I was still grieving for someone I never should have married. So, I started putting single.
All of this is true, and so refreshing. BUT-- toxic people in general do see if you hold boundaries over little benign things. Will you give into something you previously said no to because you are too polite and it's "no big deal" or do you hold your boundaries even if it's a little awkward/uncomfortable? Of course-- NONE of this is our fault, and we are also conditioned/brainwashed to be polite-- but-- you do help make yourself more boring/unappealing to the toxic people if they see from the get go that you are someone that can't be pushed around/manipulated. But this is something to be practiced in all contexts, not just dating. Be safe my loves!
I agree Jade. There is nothing wrong with any of us, that makes us attract toxic men; the problem comes that some women (myself included) don't spot the toxic men until we've been hurt. That isn't our fault, it's just that women (in particular) have been taught that we need to be nice to everyone, or indoctrinated to believe that "it's just a joke" when a man makes a test & apologise type comment! Women who can spot the toxic men won't tolerate the icky behaviour, so the interaction ends much sooner.
I guess it's a bit like if someone said "why do I get sunburned when I go on holiday but other people don't?" If you were never told about wearing suncream, or if as a kid someone said "the redness isn't anything to worry about, you need to go red before you get a nice sun tan" then you might keep doing the same thing until you finally noticed the pattern and changed your behaviour to stop getting sun burned! BUT, if your parent told you to wear sun cream and avoid going on the beach between 11am-3pm, you'd know how to avoid getting sun burn all your life. It's not the sunburnt person's fault they kept getting burned, they just didn't know how to protect themselves, or were following advice they were given growing up.
So, no blame on women who've taken a while to learn they need to B2B to avoid toxic men (or ☀️ B2B to avoid sun burn!!)! Thank goodness we've now got the info we need to make better dating decisions!
[Apologies for the slightly dodgy analogy; the weather has been terrible here in the UK for months, but this weekend it's going to be a heatwave! ☀️🎉☺️⛱️
Remember everyone, wear SPF50 to avoid being a 🦞]
I like your analogy 💗 as a Gen X kid who was literally told to burn as a means of getting a tan. We even had iodine and baby oil to facilitate the process. Like we had Cosmo magazine to facilitate our internalized patriarchy. Etc. Enjoy your weekend my beautiful pyro sisters. Xx
The suntan gen x analogy is perfect. A suntan by any means was deemed healthy, even if you got somewhat burned in the process
I remember using SPF10 oil at one point! 🤦🏼♀️😭
Great analogy! Thank you. A lot of my “friends” would tell me I was too this or that and that’s why I was getting mistreated. So there’s some women out there who are door mats and willing to defend assholes. Beware of them too.
Also, I've just read this, and as a mid-40's woman who's suddenly realised it's ok to have boundaries, it rang very true!
https://midlifeshift.substack.com/p/aging-out-of-fucks-the-neuroscience?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=4m5dyj
I just read this tooo! How good
Please don't do that. It still puts the onus on women "well if your boundaries were stronger, he wouldn't have taken advantage. Why did you let yourself get pushed around?"
Yes, we can educate ourselves with this method to spot things easier and earlier; yes, we can practice setting boundaries in all contexts; and yes, men will still take advantage and will find ways to do these things.
It is not now and never will be our fault.
I didn't say that and went out of the way to clarify that I wasn't saying that. I am allowed to express something that has helped me and kept me safe. I stand by what I wrote because it might help someone. Holding boundaries is one of the most powerful ways to push back on the patriarchy and the whole purpose of this method is self-empowerment and women protecting each other.
I know you did, and I appreciate where you're coming from. What I've experienced is this: I said no. I said this is what I want/this is what I don't want. I set very clear boundaries. And a man still did those things anyways. That's the problem I have with women saying "if you get better at setting boundaries, you'll be safer." That's true up to a point, but when boundaries get crossed it's not women's fault for not having better boundaries. I set boundaries, very clear ones, and men still did these things. So is the fault mine that my boundaries weren't strong enough, or was it his fault that he couldn't respect my boundaries?
Christina, I hear what you are saying. I’m not saying that it’s a perfect method. I’m just saying it’s a tool in the arsenal. I have also experienced tons of creeps that you could be screaming no and it doesn’t matter. I am not saying that. And, I am truly sorry that that happened to you. I am of course aware that boundaries do not fix it all and someone could be the most resourced person on the planet and get harassed. I was only sharing because it took me so, so long to learn to lean into letting there be tension/discomfort in social interactions rather than “caving” to be polite. What I was trying to explain is more like, wearing a seatbelt. It’s not going to protect you from someone driving head on into the oncoming lane; but— it’ll help in more minor circumstances.
Yes. We're on the same page, and I'm sorry you experienced these things too. It's horrific and life-altering. I've had people (women. women who declare themselves feminists) tell me that if only my boundaries were stronger, if only I was less polite/more bitchy, these things wouldn't have happened to me/why did I let these things happen to me, I should have been stronger or more forceful.
Your seatbelt analogy is a good one. But sometimes we can wear a seatbelt and someone still decides to ram our car at 100 miles an hour. And that's not our fault.
Christina, I agree completely. I am sorry that my comment initially triggered you, and I understand why it did. For me, having survived severe abuse from my partner, the boundaries stuff I discussed has slowly helped teach my nervous system a safer way to interact in the world. Before I had the rhetorical patterns, it was the only tool I had for many years (learned from therapy). It was the foundation of building a new life for me. I feel I am treated better at work, at parties, and with friends, since I stopped people pleasing. I want all women to have every tool they can get their hands on. We will still never be completely safe, and that is never, ever our fault, when something bad happens. All we can do is be there for our sisters and hold them in love when they are harmed. I was made to feel a lot of things were my fault, so I know how terrible that feels, and I would never want to make someone else feel that way. I hope you have a good day :)
I'm really sorry men behaved that way to you (to almost all of us).
Boundaries aren't a protection from someone behaving horribly towards us. Outside of extraordinary circumstances, they stop someone doing it to us twice.
As a random example - 'If you cheat on me, I will leave' isn't the boundary: the boundary is actually leaving. And swiping left on men whose profiles say 'see how things go/meet people for fun activities/high sex drive', not going on date 3 if he flirts with the waitress on date 2, break up when you learn he cheated in past relarionships, etc.
I she did none of those things, and he serially cheated, it still wouldn't be her fault in any way shape or form. He's 100% to blame and a POS.
However, walking away after the first time would have protected her from being cheated on the second time.
As women, we're taught to "give grace" on small things, and I think what this commentator is saying us that we have to start enforcing boundaries that in the past would have been considered unreasonable or too petty.
Exactly. This. There is no meaningful boundary without a consequence.
Narcissists do not respect boundaries. When a clearly stated boundary is disrespected by a narc or anyone we must follow thru with an action. That can mean end a relationship, walk out of a room or the environment, or B2B. A boundary only works with followed up action.
It’s your fault you kept going back for more after he didn’t respect your boundaries.
Please don't say things like this. Some women are trapped in relationships and don't have an option to leave. It is not as if they are "going back for more" as you say. By saying something like this, it makes those women feel responsible for their own victimhood, which no woman ever is.
Your comments are spot on Jade. I have had to learn the hard way. I completely agree with you because I have lived this.
As someone who has survived intimate partner abuse that nearly took my life-- this is something I tell to literally every female I am close to because I've seen it protect women not only from toxic partners, but also toxic bosses and coworkers. If someone misinterprets my words as victim blaming, so be it, a small price to pay for spreading my truth. Thank you for your validation, Brittney.
As a queer woman, I have survived intimate partner abuse from both men (2) and women (1), the latter of which had me suicidal and is still taking me more than a year to recover from. My therapist keeps reminding me that I didn’t do anything wrong, and that toxic and unsafe people are just very skilled at what they do: prey on people in lots of ways and situations. And it’s not uncommon for *both* parties to be unaware of the patterns being played out.
Learning rhetorical patterns in men’s behavior can also apply to women, even if not completely. Setting and holding boundaries is definitely a great skill to have and practice along with learning to spot the dangerous tells. I will take any tool in the toolbox that helps keep me safe in *all* relationships. 😊
I appreciate your advice. Setting boundaries is a form of blocking irl especially if the relationship involves someone you can’t just cut out of your life like a coworker or relative. It’s still difficult for me to not be polite and remain silent about toxic behavior from men. That is a difficult habit to break for some of us raised in the 50s-60s. I hope younger women are being raised by women who were not as indoctrinated as I was or found ways to overcome it.
It’s tiring being vigilant when toxicity is rampant; from the repairman calling me “ma’am” in a condescending manner while mansplaining, to the male employee who, after 2 weeks working in the company I founded 46 years ago, believes that he knows more about everything than I do.
Yes. I agree completely. Those little micro aggressions like your repair man are… exhausting. It’s no wonder so many more women have chronic fatigue syndrome than men… it’s like 10-1 I think lol.
Jennies book is here to help women understand the signals. Thats the whole point of Burned Haystack, she has a method to deal with this very thing you are speaking of. The point of this article is it is not our fault. Period. No buts. Thats the radical nature of this message. We say to ourselves, It is not our fault we have dated toxic men. And thats it, done, no other comment, it is a complete sentence.
So true!
I was telling a friend of mine, who's male, about a horrible date I once had. He said, "Where do you find these guys?" I said, "wrong question, you should be asking, how are men so good at hiding their true nature?"
Yes! I can't tell you how often a guy friend has replied this to me after I recount yet another bad experience with a guy. I would be like, "Um, I find them everywhere, because they ARE everywhere. There's way too big a percentage of your fellow guys who are not good people."
This!
In my 72 years, I've rarely, if ever, heard a man ask himself why he was "attracting bad women". When I asked a couple of male friends why that was, they said, "There are no bad women." Ha!
In any case, your reply was spot on, Jennie. It's not that women are "attracting bad men", we just need to employ "block and burn" on dating apps and in real life so that we are with men who meet our standards.
For many men, admitting to attracting 'bad' women would mean he is less than great. Can't be! Usually the only women who are 'bad' are those who reject them (either right away or after separation).
I had a realization about this at some point, how I, and society, was making it my fault. After a breakup with another man who dropped the mask of being an emotionally available, securely attached person. I was telling my friend about the emotional neglect and abuse and she said, trying to be helpful, “why do you think you attract guys like that?”
I was finally able to stand up for myself and call that out as victim blaming, as using spirituality to bypass the very real abuse and the skills men have in pretending to be healthy in the beginning.
BHDM is helping me read between the lines and maybe next time I’ll find my needle.
I'm glad you saw it for the victim blaming that it was ❤️ it was not your fault.
It's the hardest when these things come from other women, especially women who declare themselves feminists or supporters of women. I've experienced it too and it's a destabilizing nightmare.
Well said!
Wow, it is such an interesting point that people use this as a form of new-age spiritual bypassing. I never thought about it that way before.
Yes. This is the relief women need: his behavior is not evidence that something is wrong with you. Low-capacity, unavailable, manipulative, or harmful men do not only arrive for women with some secret defect.
And I also think many women can feel that this answer, while deeply necessary, is not the whole picture. Because once he arrives, something happens inside the woman too.
Unresolved attachment wounds and imprints can shape what the nervous system predicts in his presence: whether inconsistency feels familiar, whether intensity feels like connection, whether a boundary feels dangerous, whether leaving feels less safe than staying.
That is not self-blame. It is agency without blame.
He is responsible for his behavior. And a woman deserves to understand what has been organizing access to her life, body, attention, and future once the signal is already there.
Yes
I would also encourage women to pay close attention to their relationships with their FRIENDS -- you probably have so many wonderful warm close flexible cup-filling relationships in your life. You want to remind yourself you DO have a great picker and you are a great builder!!
This is such a great point!
How else would coaches sell courses to women if they didn’t tell women that we’re the problem?
99% of all men saying the same thing from different angles.
Excellent point! Even coaches ostensibly giving relationship advice to men, are marketing to women.
Jimmy on Relationships springs to mind.
Yes, toxic men are attracted to everyone because they are opportunists. Their predatory skills become finely tuned, and that is the reason “test and apologize” is too freaking common.
While there are the early rhetorical “sexual innuendo” tests, there are all kinds of tests designed to weaponize our empathy that we would miss or “fail” if we were not taught what to look for.
I learned in a self defense class, taught by a police officer, that a man will drop a pen (or anything) to see if a woman will pick it up for him, and that tells him she is eager to help an adult male and becomes a prime target.
I was walking out of a coffee shop behind three male coworkers. A guy shuffling cards at a table near the door was clearly studying me. He waited until the three men walked by, then threw the entire deck at my feet, no doubt thinking I would stop to help him play 52 pick up and become separated from my friends.
I recognized what he was doing and didn’t break stride, walking over the top of his cards. His jaw dropped, he acted outraged. This was a manipulation, partly because he underestimated my awareness and partly to vilify and guilt me for not being “helpful.”
The test and apologize behavior/rhetoric is created by predators. I am not dating but I eagerly spend time with Burn The Haystack because I love learning how to recognize all the strategies of predators.
Thank you for this. I had no idea people/men did this sort of thing deliberately. I'm exactly the sort of person who would get sucked in by such a tactic.
The only thing “wrong” with women, is we let the toxic men into our lives, and let them stay far too long. That’s why learning to block them quickly (even in person) is so crucial!
And doing that IS healing. It reprograms your own past wounds, gives you time to think about WTF you have been trained by society and past experiences to accept and even deal with your own attachment wounds from seeing these patterns play out in our own families.
I really am so glad I found this page. I think the point Jennie makes in her book is that this is all so important on a grand scale. Women solve problems for everyone because evolution wise, we need to make a safe and abundant environment for our children. On that note, in the film and television industry, almost everything has the premise of a strong provider/protector who needs to rescue his daughter or his hapless wife. Therefore, we’ve been conditioned to see men, who like to think of themselves as providers and protectors, according to their chosen view.
What they really are is a nuisance. In pre-history, most human settlements were matriarchal. The men lived in close knit hunter enclaves and mainly only interacted with women for religious rituals and procreation on a purely opportunistic level.
All of BHDM has helped so much make sense of why does this (something on a profile or non dating situation) come off like it’s _____ every time. It’s bc it is!
I also had a narcissistic mother who has mental illness and additionally needed to work on what that situation did to affect my perception of things, example healthy boundaries.
I was never sensitive to when they were being violated, I was being desensitized to abuse/abusive behavior. Grateful that has reset and thankful this method is so fricking supportive to that! 🩵
I did this work before discovering BHDM. I can see some women learning the method, then seeing the root of not just social and cultural influences involved but individual influences that need special attention and do the work to improve quality of life, work, and self love.
Snap, sis! On every count.
I did the work, but my sister is against therapy and believes in 'seeing the good in everyone'.
We watch Married At First Sight together, and thanks to BHDM and other things, I'm now good at spotting the toxic men before their mask comes off. Unfortunately, she'll interpret everything they say in the most positive light possible. :'( A man saying he wants a Bonnie & Clyde/bail me out of jail/ride or die, she reads as being very loyal (rather than priming a woman not to leave, no matter how badly he treats her).
She is doing absolutely nothing wrong - she's a kind, ethical person who judges everyone else's motives by her own. Knowing on a visceral level we have the right to be treated wonderfully, and the tools to assess who will do so, are invaluable.
It's in no way whatsoever our fault if we don't have those advantages - it's 100% on toxic men not to cause harm. I'm so glad to have found BHDM and other helpful things, though!
I used to be like your sister. Sadly it wasn't my violent ex's good side that hurt me and had me in fear of my life. It was one hell of a lesson.
If I could tell my past self (or someone like your sister) one thing it would be just that, it's not people's good sides that hurt you.
Oh that’s got it be so hard to see that. I’m glad you’re there for her and so proud of you hard work 💪 You’re a guiding light.
grateful you have healed your wounds and gotten a re-set. I’m working on this too
You’ve got this 💪 so proud of you.
Thank you so much for the huge amount of time and effort you put into this, you are so generous with your time and it is making a difference.
I studied online (and pre-internet classifieds in print media) dating for years before I became single and used those tools.
I was ruthless with anyone who gave any clues to poor character, and had very high standards with a full Clarice Cliff dinner set to bring to the table.
I had a small amount of harmless dates, and then met the most lovely man who I have blissfully lived with for over a decade now.
I share your wonderful resources with enthusiasm, and am somewhat surprised at the internalised misogyny that is rampant in middle class suburban Australia.
Onwards and upwards, we are still making real progress.
Heather I live in Australia and agree with you entirely about the middle class internalised misogyny. I moved from the UK 30 years ago, even though I was only in my 20s I could recognise even at a young age the chauvinism in men.
Australia does seem very macho. However, I have seen in the USA, that many women favor their own sons over their daughters. I was raised by a Mom like that. My brother was allowed to stay out all night and never cleaned up after himself. Whereas if I did anything she didn’t like, I would be locked out of the house.
I think a lot of men grow up entitled like that. It’s probably how my Mom was raised herself. We as a society have to end this cycle of favoritism for the “golden boy” son over our daughters. I still see this treatment in the community where I live. It’s very normalized in the USA and probably in other countries too.