What I find missing in these is an acknowledgment that men are generally physically stronger than women and that this creates a very real imbalance. A man making sexual comments to a female stranger walking alone is not complimentary, it’s scary!!
A woman saying no (to sex) to a man who is physically bigger & stronger can be risky - they may or may not respect your wishes. Right? When we feel at risk physically, our stress response kicks in to (hopefully) ensure our survival - but this instinctual response makes it very hard to think straight. We might go into freeze / fawn and go along with ‘grey sex’ rather than risk being forced. I wonder how many of the ‘bad sex’ experiences from a male point of view are actually because the other person went into freeze / fawn stress response?
The last article is rough going, for sure. And just how much women are asked to suffer in so many aspects of life. And to the earlier points about GGG, I agree with you all about that. I’ve worked in birth work for many years and many women are putting a brave face on to endure their lives—their marriages, religions, careers, mothering—demand soooo much from them, and we all just expect them to be long suffering in all of it.
I work with mothers who have endured tremendous pain with breastfeeding, leading to mastitis [even more pain], who eventually stopped and blamed themselves for failing. "It was my fault," I often hear. I point out to them that breastfeeding should NOT be painful. That if there is pain, it is a sign that there is something that needs to be fixed. And that it was not their fault, but both the lack of expertise of the health care professionals they reached out to, and the professionals' lack of desire to investigate, due to their belief that women's pain is unimportant.
This, and so many stories over the years in women’s health about women reporting symptoms or pain or complications that were not believed, leading to devastating outcomes. It’s such a valuable conversation
I had a similar problem during breast cancer treatment - 4 surgeries. Take aspirin. Oh that's not effective, I guess we could give you (give me!?!) a palliative care appointment. I demanded that the clinic advocate to get me an appointment sooner than the one I was able to get on my own. I blinked a lot during the palliative care appointments when the practitioner suggested I was being passive and succumbing to victim mentality. Seriously, bullsh!t.
so true! when I was breastfeeding a nurse told me it had been long enough and I should quit. I was heart broken (it had been 9 months) a lactation specialist helped me figure out the root of the problem and we created a plan, and within a week I was complication and pain free. Thank you for helping mothers with this!
at least women's health care is improving, not fast enough, but at least there is such a thing as a lactation consultant and in most hospitals as well. before that, there was le leche legauge, women helping other women.
I’m very curious about something regarding the last article. Why do women find it hard to read? I really want to understand because I had the opposite reaction. My response was FINALLY! THANK YOU! I relate so much to everything in the article. I’ve tried to have conversations with women about this subject for 30 years. I’ve been shunned and silenced for even bringing it up.
My second question is if sex with men is painful, not enjoyable what are women getting by being with a man? Sex can be used as currency but what is received in exchange. I’ve been married twice, and I can tell you all the things we’re told we get from marriage, but I got very little. I see other women in my life, who give a lot and get very much either. I’m in the middle-aged demographic of women who are very happily single, living a pretty good life now. I just wish I had gotten here sooner as i wish so many women would.
I stayed in a marriage for too long because I had a misguided notion that I had made a commitment and I should keep it. I'm in my sixties and I'm sure there had been a lot of bad advice from my mother over the year's that led to that poor decision on my part.
Regardless, sex in my marriage became non existent by my choice when his drinking interfered with his ability to perform. I finally understood I was not getting what I needed from the marriage; physically, emotionally, and mentally.
When I finally got a divorce it had been several years since I had had sex. I wanted to find a partner who was intellectually and emotionally aware; whom hopefully didn't suck at sex. However, I was more worried about my abilities and how he would handle my anxiousness at not having sex for too many years on top of the possibilities of performance issues because of my age.
Fortunately, I found the right guy. If it had been anyone else when our relationship became sexual, I might have given up for good. Sex was painful at first, because if you don't use it you lose it. He has been and is patient and considerate. If I say no, he doesn't conjole, plead, or make me feel guilty.
I too have been happy being single. Right now, I'm currently happy with the right person, for however long it lasts.
As a gynecologist, I have the “pain wasn’t even included in the studies” talk with countless women. Women who come to my office honestly thinking they are doing something wrong, and scored their partners are going to leave them, hurt them, or find another lover. Often they have physical pain, and for years have kept silent because that what what they were taught was expected of them. It very often develops or worsens after menopause.
And while it’s absolutely true that not only do many, if not most women have experienced and dismissed physical sexual pain, the topic of the mental pain that females experience is also largely ignored. *I do not mean trauma in this case.
We have been taught the man’s climax is the end goal (hence the viagra). So, we roll over for boring or unsatisfying sex. It’s even portrayed in movies - the man going to town while the woman lies there prostrate, eyes fixed on the ceiling and wholly unsatisfied. Why do we continue with the one-sided act? We don’t go to dinner to watch someone else eat while we starve. So why do we put up with being sexually neglected?
What we are most discouraged doing is communicating about and during sex. Men are practically never taught to ask, and women are practically never taught to speak. And the toll the silence has taken for generations is exemplified in these articles.
It is sadly “feminist” to demand an equal expectation of pleasure in sexual acts.
I try to empower my patients, encourage them to communicate with their partners, to not “lay down” and take it without recognizing their own worth and getting their needs met. Becasue yes, they also have sexual needs.
For levity, but not really, I remind them that they aren’t just a hole for men to stick their penises in; that’s what they make blow-up dolls for.
In this group of BHM women who are out attempting to find their needles, please begin the communication before that level of intimacy occurs with any new partner. Your needle will meet you where you are, and if sex causes you physical pain, s/he should eagerly discover ways to give and receive pleasure that doesn’t elicit that pain. Conversely, if you seek to derive pleasure from your sexual encounters, and you don’t after communicating what works or what doesn’t, then they meet the distinct qualification of being BTB. There is no shame of demanding to get your socks rocked - it’s not feminist, it’s biology.
Thank you sooooo much for weighing in here from a professional perspective. Would you be okay with me copying/pasting this into a facebook post at some point? I can either credit/tag you or keep you anonymous, whichever you prefer. In case I miss this, can you please email me @burnedhaystack@gmail.com with your response? Thank you! ❤️
There is a good book by Vanessa Marin LMFT and her husband Xander, called Sex Talks. It really delves into how couples can learn to communicate their sexual desires. It starts with each person recognizing what keeps them from these discussions. Including family of origin messages, and societal messages about sex for both men and women. There’s a lot of food for thought, and action packed into that book.
Thank you for being an advocate for women. I'm so glad it's changing. Twenty years ago when I turned to my female gynecologist with an issue, she gave me a prescription and sent me on my way because it was obviously my problem and it needed to be solved by me and a medication. It didn't feel right at all. I never filled the prescription and I got rid of the man but it was a lonely place to be.
And the biggest differential in my opinion is that females bring this to their doctors because they're looking for solutions - the intent is to find a way to make it mutually enjoyable or at least not traumatic.
Wonder how many men's doctors hear about this? My guess low percentage.
Wonder how many men's friends hear about this in an arena of sexual size/prowess?
So gross.
I don't like to make generalizations or assumptions, but this one is a safe she is trying hard to solve a problem and he thinks she's having a problem because he's so awesome
I would run screaming from Louise Perry books blaming second wave feminism and the sexual revolution for today's rape culture, but, according to a NY Times Op Ed, my generation is having the best sex.
"Why Gen X Women Are Having the Best Sex" - gift article below.
I lived that article for a year after my husband died from cancer at 53 (I was 54), but great sex within a new monogamous relationship has eluded me these last two years. In any case, that one crazy, sexy year made for a lot of good stories!
While one night stands are disappointing, I feel like long term relationships kill sex. A year or two seems to be the sweet spot for good sex. I'm an old Gen X, and yes sex after divorce was much better.
Me too. I mean yes if you wanna be poly/ENM, there’s loads of men ready/willing/able, and they don’t really care how old you are. But if you’re looking for sex within a relationship as a GenX woman? Yeah, I have not found this to be true.
I was also thinking about the Gen-X-Women-Having-Best-Sex article when reading (actually re-reading, because I read them all when they first came out) Jennie's links. It's such a funny/sad paradox. I count myself as lucky enough to identify with the "best sex" article, and I think she's right about middle age actually increasing many women's potential sexual pleasure, but that came with a MOUNTAIN of caveats for me. One of those was the marathon of truly terrible sex I had in the process of trying to find someone who could give me the pleasure I knew was possible; the other is that the great sex I am having is not in a monogamous LTR. So, yeah--%@$# great sex with a safe, reliable, and respectful man, BUT I almost drowned in terrible, dehumanizing, transactional, disrespectful sex with men who could not and/or would not consider my pleasure as part of the shared goal, AND I am still not in a relationship where I could cultivate other kinds of pleasure and connection. Love this conversation!
Omg I loved this article so much about Gen x sex. I laughed so long and hard and relate so deeply . My face is tear stained and I have shared it with all my fellow gen x buddies - women I went to preschool with - who are all, like me, recently divorced and exploring and discovering our freedom again.
Oh my goodness thank you for this article!!! It is validating and helpful like 10 yrs of therapy.. feel like I just found a thread to follow to unlock a whole world of understanding (the article about patriarchal sex and marriage)
Thank you Jennie for the articles. It’s a lot to think about that has come at a time where I’m struggling with my own complicated feelings toward sex. I was not raised in a household where I was taught that sex was a positive experience and therefore my experiences with it have not been all that positive. I am working to change that, but I will never be someone who is going to be comfortable in today’s hook up culture. I am definitely demisexual and the problem I am having in trying to date is that no one wants to wait to develop an emotional connection before sex is introduced.
For instance I was talking to a guy last night and the conversation seemed to be flowing pretty good. Mind you this was our first text conversation. Everything was great until the questions started getting more and more intrusive, like “ Are you a passionate person in a relationship?” And “Do you consider yourself a sexual person?” I wasn’t sure how to answer so I politely told him that this was not a topic that I was comfortable talking about at this time. He still tried to press on and he like Oh it’s okay. I’m not judgmental. You can tell me. Its’s fine… Needless to say he was B2B. It’s not just him though. I am finding an increasing number of men who do not respect boundaries at all even when it comes to non sexual things. My take is if you can’t respect boundaries in terms of conversation how can I trust that you will respect my boundaries in the bedroom? I’m a millennial by the way and I’m just shocked that so many men my age still do not understand consent!
GOOD FOR YOU FOR B2Bing HIM! You just saved yourself from god-knows-what. I'm sorry you encountered this guy, but I'm impressed with your response. You just made room for someone MUCH better. ❤️
I'm gen x and my generation is... well, the men are behind to say the least. B2B the sex talkers and move on. no, they will not respect your boundaries in person if they won't over txt. you aren't being unreasonable. and, there seem to be a lot of dudes out there who have given up on a relationship but do get off on getting you to chat about it, pushing your boundaries etc.
Honestly, I do not understand the men in my generation. My Gen Z son has more emotional maturity and understanding of sex than men in their 50s. I've been utterly disappointed that their egos are so fragile they can't handle the I-like-this-type-of-thing-during-sex conversations.
Meanwhile, they're trying to convince me to do all this crazy stuff that is clearly porn driven. I can't with them anymore. I'm at my limit; they open their mouths to speak and I hate them. When guys try and ask me out, I decline and tell them I'm de-centering men, they just wind up. I eventually tell them, I'll date you when you are dead and silent.
I'm at the age where I am no longer accommodating. I don't care what men think about me. I don't even want them in my company anymore.
Same! I am just shocked at the dating scene with 50 year old men. I tell them at dinner that I need time and to go slow. They are complete strangers! I dont do casual or need one night stands. None of them want to get to know me but just get me in bed! I cant stand it. (No second dates Lol they delete me) Where did those gentlemen go?? These men I meet are thru being out there in the wild. Not doing dating apps. Nope Nope. I dont even desire a man anymore but I do miss the sharing a life with a loving partner (I am a widow) and wont settle for less.
My parents NEVER talked to me about sex ever. They are still alive and still nothing. My mom believed my friends should be the one to talk to. So I have been struggling since. I did commit to marriage/relationships with men initiating sex over the years to give in to men to keep them from leaving me but I ended up feeling like sex is a chore and end up leaving them! I keep getting into this pattern. I am trying to figure this out but right now I don’t care to deal with men anymore because I keep losing myself in relationships with men. I have been single for a year and not having a man to think about is DIFFERENT and I actually Like it!! I feel like myself again! I dont crave a man in my bed. I crave my bed w my cat, my books, reading about these articles and experiences is life changing and I want to keep figuring this out!!!
Hi I wanted to comment on fb but got this email. Just wanted to share that when I met my last partner that after few months of dating that I was on his phone looking up something because mine was not nearby which he gave me to look it up but the first site came up porn. I was not expecting that. Ugh. He told me to be sex positive. I felt naive and said well, I still hear porn is a problem in relationships so he says ‘I dont have a porn problem with having you in my life. I wont use it anymore or as much since I have a high sex drive’
You know, I didnt want to talk to him anymore. I should have broke up with him. I didn’t feel right. He managed to talk me out of it, like the beginning of being manipulated. It took me another year to realize he was trying to (coercive) control me to become someone Im not. And that I did move on from him. That was a year ago, no contact. Im still not ready to date again and idc about sex either. I am just so over men. Im going thru menopause as well which makes me even more hormonal lol. I hope its ok for me to take a longgggg break and love learning more about dating and relationships and more about digging deep this method!
Ugh, I'm so sorry this happened 😢 I think you're soooo wise to take a break (or remain single forever if you want! I'm also in menopause and have been taking a long break). I have a good friend who's a financial advisor and she works with a lot of older single women -- she told me they are by far the happiest demographic with the richest and fullest lives. ❤️ Dating and partnership are not a requirement for women anymore, and increasingly not even a priority -- we can have amazing lives no matter what 🥰.
I think porn is ruining everything for everyone. It's another thing that in a perfect world could be okay, but in reality the entire industry is laced through with misogyny and violence and exploitation. It's true there's pro-women porn, but that's definitely not what's controlling the industry.
Anyway, thank you for being here and for writing ❤️
It’s ok. After reading thru these comments, I finally feel like Im not the only one. So many Gen X here! It is our generation to be people pleasers and make the man happy. I have always wondered why I lose myself in relationships. This!! I feel like this is a learning process all over again but my late husband was my match - we could talk about everything and understood each other so well. My naive self went out in the world thinking men were good like my husband. Ugh. There is so much trash to sort thru. I am not in any rush. I do miss having a partner to share life with but lately my Dad is elderly and he needs me and I love spending all this time with my Dad and my son. They love me having a break from dating. The last guy dragged me down so bad but I did come out better than before opening my sheltered eyes with y’all!! I wish we could chat on fb more but thank you for sharing all of these articles and comments!!!!!
"A lot of what we as young men learn as seduction is really more like preparatory sexual assault training,” the sociologist Harry Brod, a longtime lecturer on the topic of consent, once told me. (Or as a 37-year-old male friend observed: “In a man’s mind, ‘no’ is always negotiable.”)
And:
“Women have been taught, by every cultural force imaginable, that we must be ‘nice’ and ‘quiet’ and ‘polite.’ That we must protect others’ feelings before our own. That we are there for others’ pleasure,” said Rachel Simmons, the author of a number of books on girls, including a new one, “Enough as She Is.”
Thank you for posting this! I hadn't read it yet -- I just skimmed it and thought, "Oh yeah, "Cat Person" sex, and then in the next paragraph they referenced the story. So much truth in this article.
I read the links, and the one that was most relatable to me was the female price of male pleasure. I haven’t had sex for three years, not because I couldn’t, but because it left me feeling gross afterwards. I always had to fake it because I could not O with anyone. My partners would get frustrated and I felt like I was the problem. So I’d fake it make them happy, but it just left me feeling hollow. I also have a condition that was mentioned briefly in the article called vaginismus. It basically is where your muscles tense up and you struggle with penetration. I didn’t even know what it was for a long time, I thought the pain and discomfort was normal. I first learned about the condition when I watched Sex Education and one of the characters had it. I never learned about it in sex ed, and my first OB/GYN never mentioned it to me. I changed doctors and my next one was waaaay better and more understanding and got me into pelvic floor therapy. Between that doctor and my pelvic floor therapist I learned that sex is not supposed to be painful. I also understand that space between sexual liberty and the way it just makes me feel… used(?) by men for their pleasure. I’m still trying to find where I fit into it all, but very good reads and they definitely got me thinking.
In my experience we are encouraged to feel used. I encourage young women to experiment to learn what feels good and talk with my age mates about what we like in solo sex. In my experience talking with the loving women in my life prepares to enjoy erotic play.
They took a term that was intended to give women a way to access sex through our own agency and reinterpreted it as a way to reassert their access to our bodies as their vehicle for releasing their sexual urges. Particularly diabolical, really, to appropriate a feminist term to further their patriarchal objectification of women
I was in a pub away from home last year and ended up chatting with a local man. (I was out on my own, checking out the area with a view to moving there. I’ve got no problem going places alone as long as I feel safe, and the pub was busy.)
At some point, the conversation drifted to men and women in pubs. He said, "it’s easier for a woman to get sex when she goes out than it is for a man."
In hindsight, it was a bit of an off comment, but I clocked the tiny grain of truth that seemed to be missing a whole lot of context.
I replied "but it’s hard for a woman to get *good* sex."
Easier to get sex? As if that means we have more power? More choice? More control? Nooo, we don't have that (I wish I said that too, but I'm not too great at vocalising on the spot).
Easier doesn’t mean better, safer or more more fulfilling. It doesn’t mean we’re the ones calling the shots, especially when safety, judgment, and pleasure are so often stacked against us.
Thank you, Jennie, for this and all that you do! I will read the pieces. One thing that keeps coming up for me is that when I used to listen to Dan Savage's fabulous Savage Lovecast podcast (which I hope you will be a guest on), he occasionally touched on the situation of straight sex partners where the man (and woman) definitely pursues the man's O, and the woman...well, whatever. Dan thought this was terrible, as it is, and yet, to my mind, he barely talked about it (I stopped listening ~2022). To me, it's huge. I think maybe it's the unacknowledged open secret.
Fascinating conversation - and I am so glad that you sent an email as I joined the Facebook boycott a few weeks ago and haven't gone back. This way I am still in touch with the community!
Is there a way we can ask questions here, and respond to them? I really enjoy reading women's questions and responses. I even have a burning question. The only app I'm on in fb dating, and somehow the 'match as friends' button got turned off (I had it off for a reason). I live in a rural area and get one or 2 likes a week, which I B2B (deserved, not just for fun!). But I had gobs of matches looking for 'friendship', and some of them I wouldn't have burned if they had shown up in my regular likes. I sorted thru a few, turned that feature off, and wondered. I think of it like 'can't plan a date'. If you can't be forward enough to match as looking for a partner, but match as friends, but your profile is obviously looking for dates, to me that's a B2B. It feels manipulative, cowardly? I'm not sure how to put words to why it feels off to me.
I was over the moon when you launched your Substack for reasons in countdown order: 3) Substack's my favorite social, with more reassuring tools for safety, 2) room for you and your commenters to stretch out into more than a half-inch column, and 1) a place to contribute to the tip jar aka paid subscription. Yours has the feel of lifesaving* work; BHDM and its generous community is the only reason I stay on FB and your intent to use Substack as an alternative is what I've been waiting for to close my FB account.
* "No, you don't need a pill, you are being gaslighted" can have the feeling of the hand coming off the back of one's head when one is just about out of air. I know 13-year-old me would have thought so.
Thank you, Jenny for that last article. It was so well written and helped me to understand the nuances of coercion around sex that I could not articulate. Straight male pleasure dominates every aspect of our culture around sex. It was so enlightening to see it all in one article!
And I think this can be generalized out so many areas of our culture.
Thank you for your amazing work, it is changing lives, it's definitely changed mine:) I have a question. Dan Savage and his GGG ideology of good giving and game. I feel like it does not take into account the prevailing power dynamics between straight women and men. He was and is is a huge figure in the sex positivity scene, but I have been frustrated by his lack of understanding of where women are coming from. In the 90's his blog and newspaper series were a huge force in my opinion about sex, but now that I look back on it I feel that there are some major issues. I would love to know your opinion on this. I agree with so much of his work and what he has done, but I was never a fan of GGG as a blanket ideology for men and women.
I agree 100% with everything you're saying. In a perfect theoretical universe characterized by total equality, GGG would be a healthy and generative attitude in most cases; in the real world, GGG is too often weaponized by men to justify coercing women into doing things they don't want to do. When I was on the apps, I auto B2B'd any man who had GGG in his profile because I understand *exactly* who that was going to benefit, and I knew that it would not be me.
Totally agree with the GGG. What it tells me is that he gives a lot, likely without barriers or testing… and expects the same in return. This being the key part… what he expects in return.
yeah, thats the rub...in theory its a great practice. in reality its a deeply unfair power dynamic. gosh I wish your wisdom was around when I was a 16 year old budding feminist. Nothing like looking back on your life and seeing how your personal power was twisted and inadvertently used for the patriarchy. But hey, I have a 5 year old daughter and she is definitely benefitting from it.
I block them because one orgasm is not enough for me. I prefer men who understand my capacity for multiple orgasms. I'm not interested in teaching that tidbit of ordinary biology.
I think this is not only true for sex but for every aspect of our lives. When I talk to men about relationships, I experienced often that men believe 'it's just two individuals, with individual stories and experiences, who meet each other' whereas I am always aware that we live in a patriarchy and women's experiences aren't individual but often very simular to other women's experiences, caused by a system.
Once you have seen it you can't unsee it. Men (and sometimes women) often blame me that all I can talk about is feminism and the patriarchy- but it's everywhere, so how can I not think/talk about it!
It is interesting you mention Dan Savage. The writing he did in the 90s and early 00s were also instrumental in forming my views on sex. There is one particular article he wrote that didn't sit well with me with regard to consent. I couldn't put my finger on it at the time, but I remember responding to the article with an email asking something to the effect of, "What about consent from the other person in this story?" I still think about that article and how it made me question everything I thought I understood about sex and power dynamics.
yeah, it was a weird time to be 16 (in the 90's). I felt like I needed to do my part by being as GGG as possible, and somehow that was going to unlock my value as a partner. Looking back on it I realize how all the responsibility was put on my very immature shoulders, especially because almost every movie from the 80's groomed women to be attracted to older men, and those men were told they got everything they wanted. Jennies work has been deeply therapeutic to me as I am unwinding decades of societal gaslighting, and now I am able to look back and acknowledge that Dan Savage wasn't the sex and love guru I made him out to be.
This was eye opening and so true. Given the state of the world right now, I just genuinely want to say that I'm so grateful for you and your burned haystack group. I am so glad you came across my feed one day. I'm grateful for your values, care, community, knowledge and so many things that you bring to the world. Thank you so much. Everything is such a mess right now, but you are a consummate source of safety and empowerment in my life. 🫶
Very interesting reading! I've been intentionally single for 13 years now and now my youngest is a teen i'm dipping my toe into the dating game. I've always been a feminist but I think being single for so long, i'm able to spot red flags much easier than I did before. I think back on past relationships and how sex was always something performative on my part, that I had to get right to please him, and often faked pleasure. The male gaze is evident in almost every book and tv show. Every show with a straight couple, the guy is the boss and the woman seeks his permission in everything. Makes me so mad to see! Sorry bit off topic maybe, but it's all connected. Sex positivity should be about women setting clear boundaries aswell as knowing what they want and communicating that in a heallthy sexual encounter (relationship or otherwise) not being 'up for anything.'
What I find missing in these is an acknowledgment that men are generally physically stronger than women and that this creates a very real imbalance. A man making sexual comments to a female stranger walking alone is not complimentary, it’s scary!!
A woman saying no (to sex) to a man who is physically bigger & stronger can be risky - they may or may not respect your wishes. Right? When we feel at risk physically, our stress response kicks in to (hopefully) ensure our survival - but this instinctual response makes it very hard to think straight. We might go into freeze / fawn and go along with ‘grey sex’ rather than risk being forced. I wonder how many of the ‘bad sex’ experiences from a male point of view are actually because the other person went into freeze / fawn stress response?
Yes, exactly. You just epitomized the gray zone, and I just don't think most men are capable of getting it.
The last article is rough going, for sure. And just how much women are asked to suffer in so many aspects of life. And to the earlier points about GGG, I agree with you all about that. I’ve worked in birth work for many years and many women are putting a brave face on to endure their lives—their marriages, religions, careers, mothering—demand soooo much from them, and we all just expect them to be long suffering in all of it.
I work with mothers who have endured tremendous pain with breastfeeding, leading to mastitis [even more pain], who eventually stopped and blamed themselves for failing. "It was my fault," I often hear. I point out to them that breastfeeding should NOT be painful. That if there is pain, it is a sign that there is something that needs to be fixed. And that it was not their fault, but both the lack of expertise of the health care professionals they reached out to, and the professionals' lack of desire to investigate, due to their belief that women's pain is unimportant.
This, and so many stories over the years in women’s health about women reporting symptoms or pain or complications that were not believed, leading to devastating outcomes. It’s such a valuable conversation
I had a similar problem during breast cancer treatment - 4 surgeries. Take aspirin. Oh that's not effective, I guess we could give you (give me!?!) a palliative care appointment. I demanded that the clinic advocate to get me an appointment sooner than the one I was able to get on my own. I blinked a lot during the palliative care appointments when the practitioner suggested I was being passive and succumbing to victim mentality. Seriously, bullsh!t.
Oof. In addition to recognizing what causes pain, there is a deficit in the system on how to manage pain. I hope you're not in pain anymore.
No, I can advocate for myself and kick ass while under duress. A skill that needs to become obsolete.
so true! when I was breastfeeding a nurse told me it had been long enough and I should quit. I was heart broken (it had been 9 months) a lactation specialist helped me figure out the root of the problem and we created a plan, and within a week I was complication and pain free. Thank you for helping mothers with this!
at least women's health care is improving, not fast enough, but at least there is such a thing as a lactation consultant and in most hospitals as well. before that, there was le leche legauge, women helping other women.
I'm glad you got the help you need. In my area, if a lactation consultant has hospital privileges, they have a gag order on discussing tongue tie.
For sure 😢
I’m very curious about something regarding the last article. Why do women find it hard to read? I really want to understand because I had the opposite reaction. My response was FINALLY! THANK YOU! I relate so much to everything in the article. I’ve tried to have conversations with women about this subject for 30 years. I’ve been shunned and silenced for even bringing it up.
My second question is if sex with men is painful, not enjoyable what are women getting by being with a man? Sex can be used as currency but what is received in exchange. I’ve been married twice, and I can tell you all the things we’re told we get from marriage, but I got very little. I see other women in my life, who give a lot and get very much either. I’m in the middle-aged demographic of women who are very happily single, living a pretty good life now. I just wish I had gotten here sooner as i wish so many women would.
I stayed in a marriage for too long because I had a misguided notion that I had made a commitment and I should keep it. I'm in my sixties and I'm sure there had been a lot of bad advice from my mother over the year's that led to that poor decision on my part.
Regardless, sex in my marriage became non existent by my choice when his drinking interfered with his ability to perform. I finally understood I was not getting what I needed from the marriage; physically, emotionally, and mentally.
When I finally got a divorce it had been several years since I had had sex. I wanted to find a partner who was intellectually and emotionally aware; whom hopefully didn't suck at sex. However, I was more worried about my abilities and how he would handle my anxiousness at not having sex for too many years on top of the possibilities of performance issues because of my age.
Fortunately, I found the right guy. If it had been anyone else when our relationship became sexual, I might have given up for good. Sex was painful at first, because if you don't use it you lose it. He has been and is patient and considerate. If I say no, he doesn't conjole, plead, or make me feel guilty.
I too have been happy being single. Right now, I'm currently happy with the right person, for however long it lasts.
Re: “the female price of male pleasure”
As a gynecologist, I have the “pain wasn’t even included in the studies” talk with countless women. Women who come to my office honestly thinking they are doing something wrong, and scored their partners are going to leave them, hurt them, or find another lover. Often they have physical pain, and for years have kept silent because that what what they were taught was expected of them. It very often develops or worsens after menopause.
And while it’s absolutely true that not only do many, if not most women have experienced and dismissed physical sexual pain, the topic of the mental pain that females experience is also largely ignored. *I do not mean trauma in this case.
We have been taught the man’s climax is the end goal (hence the viagra). So, we roll over for boring or unsatisfying sex. It’s even portrayed in movies - the man going to town while the woman lies there prostrate, eyes fixed on the ceiling and wholly unsatisfied. Why do we continue with the one-sided act? We don’t go to dinner to watch someone else eat while we starve. So why do we put up with being sexually neglected?
What we are most discouraged doing is communicating about and during sex. Men are practically never taught to ask, and women are practically never taught to speak. And the toll the silence has taken for generations is exemplified in these articles.
It is sadly “feminist” to demand an equal expectation of pleasure in sexual acts.
I try to empower my patients, encourage them to communicate with their partners, to not “lay down” and take it without recognizing their own worth and getting their needs met. Becasue yes, they also have sexual needs.
For levity, but not really, I remind them that they aren’t just a hole for men to stick their penises in; that’s what they make blow-up dolls for.
In this group of BHM women who are out attempting to find their needles, please begin the communication before that level of intimacy occurs with any new partner. Your needle will meet you where you are, and if sex causes you physical pain, s/he should eagerly discover ways to give and receive pleasure that doesn’t elicit that pain. Conversely, if you seek to derive pleasure from your sexual encounters, and you don’t after communicating what works or what doesn’t, then they meet the distinct qualification of being BTB. There is no shame of demanding to get your socks rocked - it’s not feminist, it’s biology.
Thank you sooooo much for weighing in here from a professional perspective. Would you be okay with me copying/pasting this into a facebook post at some point? I can either credit/tag you or keep you anonymous, whichever you prefer. In case I miss this, can you please email me @burnedhaystack@gmail.com with your response? Thank you! ❤️
There is a good book by Vanessa Marin LMFT and her husband Xander, called Sex Talks. It really delves into how couples can learn to communicate their sexual desires. It starts with each person recognizing what keeps them from these discussions. Including family of origin messages, and societal messages about sex for both men and women. There’s a lot of food for thought, and action packed into that book.
Absolutely! I sent an email. Thank you!
Thank you for being an advocate for women. I'm so glad it's changing. Twenty years ago when I turned to my female gynecologist with an issue, she gave me a prescription and sent me on my way because it was obviously my problem and it needed to be solved by me and a medication. It didn't feel right at all. I never filled the prescription and I got rid of the man but it was a lonely place to be.
Ugh. So all of this.
And the biggest differential in my opinion is that females bring this to their doctors because they're looking for solutions - the intent is to find a way to make it mutually enjoyable or at least not traumatic.
Wonder how many men's doctors hear about this? My guess low percentage.
Wonder how many men's friends hear about this in an arena of sexual size/prowess?
So gross.
I don't like to make generalizations or assumptions, but this one is a safe she is trying hard to solve a problem and he thinks she's having a problem because he's so awesome
Great article by Celeste Davis
Do you not like sex or do you just not like patriarchal sex?
"I wasn't saying no to sex WITH men, I was saying no to sex FOR men." Why so many married straight women assume they don't like sex.
https://celestemdavis.substack.com/p/patriarchal-sex
I would run screaming from Louise Perry books blaming second wave feminism and the sexual revolution for today's rape culture, but, according to a NY Times Op Ed, my generation is having the best sex.
"Why Gen X Women Are Having the Best Sex" - gift article below.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/05/magazine/sex-gen-x-women.html?unlocked_article_code=1.vk4.d6tm.OGrAIHPpm14H&smid=url-share
Just read this yesterday, and . . . I have some doubts, lol.
I lived that article for a year after my husband died from cancer at 53 (I was 54), but great sex within a new monogamous relationship has eluded me these last two years. In any case, that one crazy, sexy year made for a lot of good stories!
While one night stands are disappointing, I feel like long term relationships kill sex. A year or two seems to be the sweet spot for good sex. I'm an old Gen X, and yes sex after divorce was much better.
Me too. I mean yes if you wanna be poly/ENM, there’s loads of men ready/willing/able, and they don’t really care how old you are. But if you’re looking for sex within a relationship as a GenX woman? Yeah, I have not found this to be true.
So to me this just feels like more so-called sex positivity under the guise of promiscuity.
I was also thinking about the Gen-X-Women-Having-Best-Sex article when reading (actually re-reading, because I read them all when they first came out) Jennie's links. It's such a funny/sad paradox. I count myself as lucky enough to identify with the "best sex" article, and I think she's right about middle age actually increasing many women's potential sexual pleasure, but that came with a MOUNTAIN of caveats for me. One of those was the marathon of truly terrible sex I had in the process of trying to find someone who could give me the pleasure I knew was possible; the other is that the great sex I am having is not in a monogamous LTR. So, yeah--%@$# great sex with a safe, reliable, and respectful man, BUT I almost drowned in terrible, dehumanizing, transactional, disrespectful sex with men who could not and/or would not consider my pleasure as part of the shared goal, AND I am still not in a relationship where I could cultivate other kinds of pleasure and connection. Love this conversation!
Yes, yes, yes to all this Sarah. “A MOUNTAIN of caveats” - so true! We are having similar conversations in @Miranda July’s chat here on Substack.
Omg I loved this article so much about Gen x sex. I laughed so long and hard and relate so deeply . My face is tear stained and I have shared it with all my fellow gen x buddies - women I went to preschool with - who are all, like me, recently divorced and exploring and discovering our freedom again.
Oh my goodness thank you for this article!!! It is validating and helpful like 10 yrs of therapy.. feel like I just found a thread to follow to unlock a whole world of understanding (the article about patriarchal sex and marriage)
Thank you Jennie for the articles. It’s a lot to think about that has come at a time where I’m struggling with my own complicated feelings toward sex. I was not raised in a household where I was taught that sex was a positive experience and therefore my experiences with it have not been all that positive. I am working to change that, but I will never be someone who is going to be comfortable in today’s hook up culture. I am definitely demisexual and the problem I am having in trying to date is that no one wants to wait to develop an emotional connection before sex is introduced.
For instance I was talking to a guy last night and the conversation seemed to be flowing pretty good. Mind you this was our first text conversation. Everything was great until the questions started getting more and more intrusive, like “ Are you a passionate person in a relationship?” And “Do you consider yourself a sexual person?” I wasn’t sure how to answer so I politely told him that this was not a topic that I was comfortable talking about at this time. He still tried to press on and he like Oh it’s okay. I’m not judgmental. You can tell me. Its’s fine… Needless to say he was B2B. It’s not just him though. I am finding an increasing number of men who do not respect boundaries at all even when it comes to non sexual things. My take is if you can’t respect boundaries in terms of conversation how can I trust that you will respect my boundaries in the bedroom? I’m a millennial by the way and I’m just shocked that so many men my age still do not understand consent!
GOOD FOR YOU FOR B2Bing HIM! You just saved yourself from god-knows-what. I'm sorry you encountered this guy, but I'm impressed with your response. You just made room for someone MUCH better. ❤️
I'm gen x and my generation is... well, the men are behind to say the least. B2B the sex talkers and move on. no, they will not respect your boundaries in person if they won't over txt. you aren't being unreasonable. and, there seem to be a lot of dudes out there who have given up on a relationship but do get off on getting you to chat about it, pushing your boundaries etc.
Honestly, I do not understand the men in my generation. My Gen Z son has more emotional maturity and understanding of sex than men in their 50s. I've been utterly disappointed that their egos are so fragile they can't handle the I-like-this-type-of-thing-during-sex conversations.
Meanwhile, they're trying to convince me to do all this crazy stuff that is clearly porn driven. I can't with them anymore. I'm at my limit; they open their mouths to speak and I hate them. When guys try and ask me out, I decline and tell them I'm de-centering men, they just wind up. I eventually tell them, I'll date you when you are dead and silent.
I'm at the age where I am no longer accommodating. I don't care what men think about me. I don't even want them in my company anymore.
Same! I am just shocked at the dating scene with 50 year old men. I tell them at dinner that I need time and to go slow. They are complete strangers! I dont do casual or need one night stands. None of them want to get to know me but just get me in bed! I cant stand it. (No second dates Lol they delete me) Where did those gentlemen go?? These men I meet are thru being out there in the wild. Not doing dating apps. Nope Nope. I dont even desire a man anymore but I do miss the sharing a life with a loving partner (I am a widow) and wont settle for less.
just about there!
My parents NEVER talked to me about sex ever. They are still alive and still nothing. My mom believed my friends should be the one to talk to. So I have been struggling since. I did commit to marriage/relationships with men initiating sex over the years to give in to men to keep them from leaving me but I ended up feeling like sex is a chore and end up leaving them! I keep getting into this pattern. I am trying to figure this out but right now I don’t care to deal with men anymore because I keep losing myself in relationships with men. I have been single for a year and not having a man to think about is DIFFERENT and I actually Like it!! I feel like myself again! I dont crave a man in my bed. I crave my bed w my cat, my books, reading about these articles and experiences is life changing and I want to keep figuring this out!!!
Hi I wanted to comment on fb but got this email. Just wanted to share that when I met my last partner that after few months of dating that I was on his phone looking up something because mine was not nearby which he gave me to look it up but the first site came up porn. I was not expecting that. Ugh. He told me to be sex positive. I felt naive and said well, I still hear porn is a problem in relationships so he says ‘I dont have a porn problem with having you in my life. I wont use it anymore or as much since I have a high sex drive’
You know, I didnt want to talk to him anymore. I should have broke up with him. I didn’t feel right. He managed to talk me out of it, like the beginning of being manipulated. It took me another year to realize he was trying to (coercive) control me to become someone Im not. And that I did move on from him. That was a year ago, no contact. Im still not ready to date again and idc about sex either. I am just so over men. Im going thru menopause as well which makes me even more hormonal lol. I hope its ok for me to take a longgggg break and love learning more about dating and relationships and more about digging deep this method!
Ugh, I'm so sorry this happened 😢 I think you're soooo wise to take a break (or remain single forever if you want! I'm also in menopause and have been taking a long break). I have a good friend who's a financial advisor and she works with a lot of older single women -- she told me they are by far the happiest demographic with the richest and fullest lives. ❤️ Dating and partnership are not a requirement for women anymore, and increasingly not even a priority -- we can have amazing lives no matter what 🥰.
I think porn is ruining everything for everyone. It's another thing that in a perfect world could be okay, but in reality the entire industry is laced through with misogyny and violence and exploitation. It's true there's pro-women porn, but that's definitely not what's controlling the industry.
Anyway, thank you for being here and for writing ❤️
It’s ok. After reading thru these comments, I finally feel like Im not the only one. So many Gen X here! It is our generation to be people pleasers and make the man happy. I have always wondered why I lose myself in relationships. This!! I feel like this is a learning process all over again but my late husband was my match - we could talk about everything and understood each other so well. My naive self went out in the world thinking men were good like my husband. Ugh. There is so much trash to sort thru. I am not in any rush. I do miss having a partner to share life with but lately my Dad is elderly and he needs me and I love spending all this time with my Dad and my son. They love me having a break from dating. The last guy dragged me down so bad but I did come out better than before opening my sheltered eyes with y’all!! I wish we could chat on fb more but thank you for sharing all of these articles and comments!!!!!
Jessica Bennett makes a few really good points:
"A lot of what we as young men learn as seduction is really more like preparatory sexual assault training,” the sociologist Harry Brod, a longtime lecturer on the topic of consent, once told me. (Or as a 37-year-old male friend observed: “In a man’s mind, ‘no’ is always negotiable.”)
And:
“Women have been taught, by every cultural force imaginable, that we must be ‘nice’ and ‘quiet’ and ‘polite.’ That we must protect others’ feelings before our own. That we are there for others’ pleasure,” said Rachel Simmons, the author of a number of books on girls, including a new one, “Enough as She Is.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/sunday-review/when-saying-yes-is-easier-than-saying-no.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Thank you for posting this! I hadn't read it yet -- I just skimmed it and thought, "Oh yeah, "Cat Person" sex, and then in the next paragraph they referenced the story. So much truth in this article.
I read the links, and the one that was most relatable to me was the female price of male pleasure. I haven’t had sex for three years, not because I couldn’t, but because it left me feeling gross afterwards. I always had to fake it because I could not O with anyone. My partners would get frustrated and I felt like I was the problem. So I’d fake it make them happy, but it just left me feeling hollow. I also have a condition that was mentioned briefly in the article called vaginismus. It basically is where your muscles tense up and you struggle with penetration. I didn’t even know what it was for a long time, I thought the pain and discomfort was normal. I first learned about the condition when I watched Sex Education and one of the characters had it. I never learned about it in sex ed, and my first OB/GYN never mentioned it to me. I changed doctors and my next one was waaaay better and more understanding and got me into pelvic floor therapy. Between that doctor and my pelvic floor therapist I learned that sex is not supposed to be painful. I also understand that space between sexual liberty and the way it just makes me feel… used(?) by men for their pleasure. I’m still trying to find where I fit into it all, but very good reads and they definitely got me thinking.
So very glad you found a doctor who could help ❤️
In my experience we are encouraged to feel used. I encourage young women to experiment to learn what feels good and talk with my age mates about what we like in solo sex. In my experience talking with the loving women in my life prepares to enjoy erotic play.
Mo Collins wrote about vaginismus on her Substack and the comments, especially the most recent, are eye-opening as to specifics: https://mocollins.substack.com/p/the-great-wall-of-vgina/comments
They took a term that was intended to give women a way to access sex through our own agency and reinterpreted it as a way to reassert their access to our bodies as their vehicle for releasing their sexual urges. Particularly diabolical, really, to appropriate a feminist term to further their patriarchal objectification of women
I was in a pub away from home last year and ended up chatting with a local man. (I was out on my own, checking out the area with a view to moving there. I’ve got no problem going places alone as long as I feel safe, and the pub was busy.)
At some point, the conversation drifted to men and women in pubs. He said, "it’s easier for a woman to get sex when she goes out than it is for a man."
In hindsight, it was a bit of an off comment, but I clocked the tiny grain of truth that seemed to be missing a whole lot of context.
I replied "but it’s hard for a woman to get *good* sex."
Easier to get sex? As if that means we have more power? More choice? More control? Nooo, we don't have that (I wish I said that too, but I'm not too great at vocalising on the spot).
Easier doesn’t mean better, safer or more more fulfilling. It doesn’t mean we’re the ones calling the shots, especially when safety, judgment, and pleasure are so often stacked against us.
Peen is plentiful and of low quality.
Yes! I appreciate your words. My thoughts ran to 'sure, I can get fucked, but I don't want that.'
also can get a lot of other stuff that nobody wants. I think we all know so no need to get all graphic.
Yeah! I get graphic with my nieces and we look at trustworthy websites together, a totally different situation.
Thank you, Jennie, for this and all that you do! I will read the pieces. One thing that keeps coming up for me is that when I used to listen to Dan Savage's fabulous Savage Lovecast podcast (which I hope you will be a guest on), he occasionally touched on the situation of straight sex partners where the man (and woman) definitely pursues the man's O, and the woman...well, whatever. Dan thought this was terrible, as it is, and yet, to my mind, he barely talked about it (I stopped listening ~2022). To me, it's huge. I think maybe it's the unacknowledged open secret.
*sigh* . . . I wish I was surprised by this, but sadly, I am not . . .
Fascinating conversation - and I am so glad that you sent an email as I joined the Facebook boycott a few weeks ago and haven't gone back. This way I am still in touch with the community!
I'm desperately trying to get people to come here as an alternative to Facebook. Please invite your friends! It's just a safer space.
Is there a way we can ask questions here, and respond to them? I really enjoy reading women's questions and responses. I even have a burning question. The only app I'm on in fb dating, and somehow the 'match as friends' button got turned off (I had it off for a reason). I live in a rural area and get one or 2 likes a week, which I B2B (deserved, not just for fun!). But I had gobs of matches looking for 'friendship', and some of them I wouldn't have burned if they had shown up in my regular likes. I sorted thru a few, turned that feature off, and wondered. I think of it like 'can't plan a date'. If you can't be forward enough to match as looking for a partner, but match as friends, but your profile is obviously looking for dates, to me that's a B2B. It feels manipulative, cowardly? I'm not sure how to put words to why it feels off to me.
I was over the moon when you launched your Substack for reasons in countdown order: 3) Substack's my favorite social, with more reassuring tools for safety, 2) room for you and your commenters to stretch out into more than a half-inch column, and 1) a place to contribute to the tip jar aka paid subscription. Yours has the feel of lifesaving* work; BHDM and its generous community is the only reason I stay on FB and your intent to use Substack as an alternative is what I've been waiting for to close my FB account.
* "No, you don't need a pill, you are being gaslighted" can have the feeling of the hand coming off the back of one's head when one is just about out of air. I know 13-year-old me would have thought so.
I noticed that if I go on fb and look at the page I want, no adds! I can see all the posts in the group and then look at another if I want.
Thank you, Jenny for that last article. It was so well written and helped me to understand the nuances of coercion around sex that I could not articulate. Straight male pleasure dominates every aspect of our culture around sex. It was so enlightening to see it all in one article!
And I think this can be generalized out so many areas of our culture.
HI Jennie,
Thank you for your amazing work, it is changing lives, it's definitely changed mine:) I have a question. Dan Savage and his GGG ideology of good giving and game. I feel like it does not take into account the prevailing power dynamics between straight women and men. He was and is is a huge figure in the sex positivity scene, but I have been frustrated by his lack of understanding of where women are coming from. In the 90's his blog and newspaper series were a huge force in my opinion about sex, but now that I look back on it I feel that there are some major issues. I would love to know your opinion on this. I agree with so much of his work and what he has done, but I was never a fan of GGG as a blanket ideology for men and women.
thank you Jennie!
I agree 100% with everything you're saying. In a perfect theoretical universe characterized by total equality, GGG would be a healthy and generative attitude in most cases; in the real world, GGG is too often weaponized by men to justify coercing women into doing things they don't want to do. When I was on the apps, I auto B2B'd any man who had GGG in his profile because I understand *exactly* who that was going to benefit, and I knew that it would not be me.
Totally agree with the GGG. What it tells me is that he gives a lot, likely without barriers or testing… and expects the same in return. This being the key part… what he expects in return.
yeah, thats the rub...in theory its a great practice. in reality its a deeply unfair power dynamic. gosh I wish your wisdom was around when I was a 16 year old budding feminist. Nothing like looking back on your life and seeing how your personal power was twisted and inadvertently used for the patriarchy. But hey, I have a 5 year old daughter and she is definitely benefitting from it.
I block them because one orgasm is not enough for me. I prefer men who understand my capacity for multiple orgasms. I'm not interested in teaching that tidbit of ordinary biology.
I think this is not only true for sex but for every aspect of our lives. When I talk to men about relationships, I experienced often that men believe 'it's just two individuals, with individual stories and experiences, who meet each other' whereas I am always aware that we live in a patriarchy and women's experiences aren't individual but often very simular to other women's experiences, caused by a system.
Once you have seen it you can't unsee it. Men (and sometimes women) often blame me that all I can talk about is feminism and the patriarchy- but it's everywhere, so how can I not think/talk about it!
Interesting that we both referenced Dan Savage!
Right?? Great minds ❤️
It is interesting you mention Dan Savage. The writing he did in the 90s and early 00s were also instrumental in forming my views on sex. There is one particular article he wrote that didn't sit well with me with regard to consent. I couldn't put my finger on it at the time, but I remember responding to the article with an email asking something to the effect of, "What about consent from the other person in this story?" I still think about that article and how it made me question everything I thought I understood about sex and power dynamics.
yeah, it was a weird time to be 16 (in the 90's). I felt like I needed to do my part by being as GGG as possible, and somehow that was going to unlock my value as a partner. Looking back on it I realize how all the responsibility was put on my very immature shoulders, especially because almost every movie from the 80's groomed women to be attracted to older men, and those men were told they got everything they wanted. Jennies work has been deeply therapeutic to me as I am unwinding decades of societal gaslighting, and now I am able to look back and acknowledge that Dan Savage wasn't the sex and love guru I made him out to be.
I mean, rewatching labyrinth??? it's so gross. I hate that movie now. It was in my top 5 as a 9 year old.
This was eye opening and so true. Given the state of the world right now, I just genuinely want to say that I'm so grateful for you and your burned haystack group. I am so glad you came across my feed one day. I'm grateful for your values, care, community, knowledge and so many things that you bring to the world. Thank you so much. Everything is such a mess right now, but you are a consummate source of safety and empowerment in my life. 🫶
same.
Very interesting reading! I've been intentionally single for 13 years now and now my youngest is a teen i'm dipping my toe into the dating game. I've always been a feminist but I think being single for so long, i'm able to spot red flags much easier than I did before. I think back on past relationships and how sex was always something performative on my part, that I had to get right to please him, and often faked pleasure. The male gaze is evident in almost every book and tv show. Every show with a straight couple, the guy is the boss and the woman seeks his permission in everything. Makes me so mad to see! Sorry bit off topic maybe, but it's all connected. Sex positivity should be about women setting clear boundaries aswell as knowing what they want and communicating that in a heallthy sexual encounter (relationship or otherwise) not being 'up for anything.'