I got married at 21 to someone who believed we were soulmates from the first few weeks of dating. We put butterflies on our wedding invitation.
15 years later I’m going through a terrible divorce. Dr. Ramani talks about the danger of believing that there is love at first sight, or that people are fated to be together. She says that it is pretty common for teens and young adults to have a naive belief in soulmates, but as people mature they tend to let go of that idea because it just doesn’t play out that way in reality. Manipulative people love that sort of language however. They target people who still dream of finding “my person” because it means you are easier to control. They want you to be on a roller coaster of emotion and hold on through the terrible treatment from them so you can feel that high again. Stay far away if someone wants you to buy in right away, commit really quickly, or pay more attention to the feelings of love than the compatibility on paper.
You know what is an amazing turn on? Someone who consistently shows up for you and is willing to get to know you slowly and talk about difficult topics. Being treated like a goddess might feel good, and you might have had a whirlwind romance once that makes you long for that again, but relationships that last a lifetime and are beneficial to both partners are based on mutual respect, friendship, and compatibility.
💯 to all of this. I'm so sorry you're going through a painful divorce right now, and I am sending you all good wishes for peace and light on the other side ❤️
Awe, I am sorry you are going through that. I married my “best friend” much later in life but absolutely allowed so much poor behavior because I thought what we had was a unique and special relationship. He used that willingness to lower expectations and boundaries to the fullest and I too am going through a terrible divorce right now.
I think the age and maturity comment is a bit harsh. Since you have not spent a large amount of your adult life single, let me share a little.
First, I have had a few long term relationships that were very healthy but just proved to be bad matches eventually. This guy and I had been through so much throughout our lives, I think it was reasonable to think we had something special and deeper. Also, many older people have been through a lot of trauma or just failed relationships and we want to feel part of a couple/family/etc so when someone comes along who makes us feel connected in that special way where you feel comfortable and like you have known each other forever, it is very tempting to sink into that feeling.
Anyway, divorce sucks and so do manipulative asshats. ❤️
This man is a spark seeker, they come in hot and leave a chill on the way out. They like new relationship energy and are not the slow burn type (after the thrill is gone they will be gone). The use of the word "must" is always a turn off for me. Also the use of trendy words like EQ (show don't tell) is a B2B. I value IQ and EQ (they are connected). This entire profile would be a B2B for me.
When my last two post-divorce relationships ended, each man (65+) expressed the thought that our relationships had to end because he wanted to fall head over heels in love and that when that happened he would not have to make any decisions because they would just "know." It sounded adolescent to me. No woman I know expresses a wish to meet someone where no decisions would ever have to be made because they would just "know" this person is The One.
For me would be a B2B, by his words I can only picture a man-child that needs to be “high” on oxytocin or narcissistic supply. He wants to feel he is in a pedestal like a child. Problem is children are not accountable and whatever they do “ they are just a child”. Life is a too serious issue to partner up with a kid.
Totally agree! When a man talks in his bio about butterflies, it’s a sign that he may lose interest once the honeymoon phase is over. He’s s a novelty seeker - he will lose interest or cheat in order to seek out those butterflies.
I don't like seeing EQ in a profile, I feel like it's coded for 'I've done the research about what I'm supposed to say.' In this case, wanting 'butterflies, warm fuzzies and a soul mate', like Jennie said, he's being a bit juvenile, not exhibiting a high EQ. And any mention of 'twin flame' or 'soul mate' I'm out. The idea of 'soul mates' has been used to manipulate women into all kinds of things, from getting into bed with someone they aren't ready to, to staying for years with an abusive partner I would B2B this guy without a second though, the profile just gives me the willies.
No, this man is telling me what he wants in life (and I prefer a man who describes what he brings to life). He seems like a subtle or covert AI Girlfriend or "order up" dude.
My profile reads, "I have plenty of friends, I'm looking for spark" because:
1) It's true
2) I want all of the "friends first and let's see where it goes" guys to move on.
This may or may not make me a butterfly chaser. I'm cool with that. I want love and romance.
I learned a lot from my last relationship and BHDM about red flags, love bombing and narcs. I think/hope I can weed that out now.
Also, I legit have found friends on Bumble. Last summer I went on dates with two good guys who I really liked, but for various reasons, were not a match.
We text and talk on the phone often, go out to dinner, movies, and concerts (you know, friend stuff!). There's nothing romantic or flirty in our interactions, and I genuinely love them both, just like I love my women friends. It wasn't what I was expecting or looking for, but I'm glad I found these friend needles.
Wow. That's interesting and encouraging about the friendships. I was so it to: "nope." Nope, Pass. You're not it" during my busy 3 months (pre-pandemic) I kinda cancelled out those possibilities. I know now I wasn't over my previous relationship, whom I loved more than my two husbands. And, that I was looking for a spiritual match. Now, I know that's sorta like...Good luck with that. At my age, at least.
You're in communications as am I. I had difficulty with any app but Match in terms of what I could learn upfront with the amount of verbiage. Bumble was so little. Match the most. I know most people hate Match now. I get it. But the info upfront it provided....
Although as a woman I kind of like the idea of friends first. If the dude can’t be a decent friend then he ain’t gonna be a good partner. And I have tons of totally amazing friends so he has to be better than all them to be considered for partnership.
I would be saying, is he reliable and consistent like any good friend should be? Is he accountable? Can he work in shared projects together? Can he resolve conflicts? If he can’t do these basic things I expect of a friend then why on wary would I entertain the idea of having him as a partner? Often I’ve overlooked men’s rubbish qualities because butterflies and romance but I rather like the idea of seeing if they can be good friends first.
But yeah not interested in being strung along with some non committal dude who isn’t mature enough to get his act together and commit
= I want things to be fun, fast and easy. I want sunshine, lollipops and rainbows. I am not up for hard conversations or accountability and you can’t make me because that’s gonna kill the inspiration. I don’t want the boring stuff (showing up, being consistent, predictable, responsive, accessible), I want excitement and sex and fun times and sex and hot girls and sex. I want someone attractive who looks at me and turns me into scrambled eggs. I don’t want to take care of you when you’re sick or old or injured or tired, or to mop the floor or make the bed or wash the dishes because that’s BORING and not BUTTERFLYING.
“I value EQ over IQ everytime.”
= A woman is not allowed to have an opinion or debate me intellectually but must give me warm fuzzies perpetually. Intellect is for men, although I’ll pretend I don’t value IQ in anyone. I will use emotion to manipulate you by saying I feel so “vulnerable” when you ask to hold me accountable or “shame” when you point out something I did, or “I need acceptance” when you’re asking me to treat you like an equal and to pick up my own damn socks.
“…honest…”
= I am a jealous guy and will judge you harshly for looking at and maintaining friendships with other men. You are guilty before proven innocent. I have trust issues. I’m insecure and controlling. Women are manipulative, unreliable and cannot be trusted. Therefore they deserve all the ill treatment they get.
“Must like dogs”
= I have a dog that’s a slob and I expect you to clean up after it
“Must like…decent films”
= I get to be the judge of what’s decent. Anything that doesn’t fit my definition is trashy.
Heh. My response if I were to see a profile like this, back in my quick hey day on the apps Jan. until March 2020...or in the future if I get back on, which I'm considering like maybe end of year, though I prefer/dream/wish for organic meeting, would be: Nope. Ick. Unrealistic.
I feel like if you entertain his butterflies, the minute the butterfly “flies” away, he needs to find a new one. Yes, based on his words, he is emotionally immature. He is definitely leaning into the chaos of the butterfly effect. I wonder if this is his way to start comparing you to his perfect woman idea.
Aside from the butterflies, he has already told us that you should be too smart as it will threaten his intelligence. Probably that high EQ desire means, don’t get upset when he neglects you or your needs. And of course, any movie you like that he doesn’t is a potential deal breaker.
Is there a cheat sheet of the rhetorical patterns available? Or perhaps a written summary of each? I love all the detailed explanations and examples, but my memory doesn’t keep things like it used to and I learn best by reading/seeing things. I’d love a list to prompt consideration of all of them. I
’d also LOVE more info about the book, because I will definitely be buying that as my dating bible! 💕📚 Thanks!
This is interesting. I think there are dangers in assuming that either a spark seeker or a seemingly solid one are going to be safe choices. While I agree there are dangers to love at first sight, there are also the ones that seem predictable but are living a double life. I don’t think there’s an easy answer other than being aware that sometimes nothing is as it seems and to act quickly no matter what the first impression is.
In a crazy way - this is one more version of a lack of accountability. I recognize now that I, too, wanted this. A freedom from all responsibility in the “choosing”. It was just “meant to be”, “outside our control”, “serendipitous”, etc etc.
But now I know for certain - it’s lack of accountability at its most revered and socially-acceptable point. That’s no longer for me. I now hold myself accountable in all (appropriate) things and desire a partner who is capable of the same.
I got married at 21 to someone who believed we were soulmates from the first few weeks of dating. We put butterflies on our wedding invitation.
15 years later I’m going through a terrible divorce. Dr. Ramani talks about the danger of believing that there is love at first sight, or that people are fated to be together. She says that it is pretty common for teens and young adults to have a naive belief in soulmates, but as people mature they tend to let go of that idea because it just doesn’t play out that way in reality. Manipulative people love that sort of language however. They target people who still dream of finding “my person” because it means you are easier to control. They want you to be on a roller coaster of emotion and hold on through the terrible treatment from them so you can feel that high again. Stay far away if someone wants you to buy in right away, commit really quickly, or pay more attention to the feelings of love than the compatibility on paper.
You know what is an amazing turn on? Someone who consistently shows up for you and is willing to get to know you slowly and talk about difficult topics. Being treated like a goddess might feel good, and you might have had a whirlwind romance once that makes you long for that again, but relationships that last a lifetime and are beneficial to both partners are based on mutual respect, friendship, and compatibility.
💯 to all of this. I'm so sorry you're going through a painful divorce right now, and I am sending you all good wishes for peace and light on the other side ❤️
Thank you for summarizing so well what I wanted to try to get across. "Butterflies" are dangerous and a sign of emotional manipulation.
You’re describing a trauma bond. That can certainly feel like a very strong attraction.
Awe, I am sorry you are going through that. I married my “best friend” much later in life but absolutely allowed so much poor behavior because I thought what we had was a unique and special relationship. He used that willingness to lower expectations and boundaries to the fullest and I too am going through a terrible divorce right now.
I think the age and maturity comment is a bit harsh. Since you have not spent a large amount of your adult life single, let me share a little.
First, I have had a few long term relationships that were very healthy but just proved to be bad matches eventually. This guy and I had been through so much throughout our lives, I think it was reasonable to think we had something special and deeper. Also, many older people have been through a lot of trauma or just failed relationships and we want to feel part of a couple/family/etc so when someone comes along who makes us feel connected in that special way where you feel comfortable and like you have known each other forever, it is very tempting to sink into that feeling.
Anyway, divorce sucks and so do manipulative asshats. ❤️
Just to clarify the maturity comment was not mine, it’s from Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a popular psychologist.
I figured but sometimes this group can be a little judgy so I thought it was a good opportunity to get that out there.
I'm sorry for your experience. Best wishes.
This man is a spark seeker, they come in hot and leave a chill on the way out. They like new relationship energy and are not the slow burn type (after the thrill is gone they will be gone). The use of the word "must" is always a turn off for me. Also the use of trendy words like EQ (show don't tell) is a B2B. I value IQ and EQ (they are connected). This entire profile would be a B2B for me.
When my last two post-divorce relationships ended, each man (65+) expressed the thought that our relationships had to end because he wanted to fall head over heels in love and that when that happened he would not have to make any decisions because they would just "know." It sounded adolescent to me. No woman I know expresses a wish to meet someone where no decisions would ever have to be made because they would just "know" this person is The One.
For me would be a B2B, by his words I can only picture a man-child that needs to be “high” on oxytocin or narcissistic supply. He wants to feel he is in a pedestal like a child. Problem is children are not accountable and whatever they do “ they are just a child”. Life is a too serious issue to partner up with a kid.
Totally agree! When a man talks in his bio about butterflies, it’s a sign that he may lose interest once the honeymoon phase is over. He’s s a novelty seeker - he will lose interest or cheat in order to seek out those butterflies.
I don't like seeing EQ in a profile, I feel like it's coded for 'I've done the research about what I'm supposed to say.' In this case, wanting 'butterflies, warm fuzzies and a soul mate', like Jennie said, he's being a bit juvenile, not exhibiting a high EQ. And any mention of 'twin flame' or 'soul mate' I'm out. The idea of 'soul mates' has been used to manipulate women into all kinds of things, from getting into bed with someone they aren't ready to, to staying for years with an abusive partner I would B2B this guy without a second though, the profile just gives me the willies.
No, this man is telling me what he wants in life (and I prefer a man who describes what he brings to life). He seems like a subtle or covert AI Girlfriend or "order up" dude.
Excellent comment: "this man is telling me what he wants in life (and I prefer a man who describes what he brings to life)"
My profile reads, "I have plenty of friends, I'm looking for spark" because:
1) It's true
2) I want all of the "friends first and let's see where it goes" guys to move on.
This may or may not make me a butterfly chaser. I'm cool with that. I want love and romance.
I learned a lot from my last relationship and BHDM about red flags, love bombing and narcs. I think/hope I can weed that out now.
Also, I legit have found friends on Bumble. Last summer I went on dates with two good guys who I really liked, but for various reasons, were not a match.
We text and talk on the phone often, go out to dinner, movies, and concerts (you know, friend stuff!). There's nothing romantic or flirty in our interactions, and I genuinely love them both, just like I love my women friends. It wasn't what I was expecting or looking for, but I'm glad I found these friend needles.
Now, if I could only find that spark...
Wow. That's interesting and encouraging about the friendships. I was so it to: "nope." Nope, Pass. You're not it" during my busy 3 months (pre-pandemic) I kinda cancelled out those possibilities. I know now I wasn't over my previous relationship, whom I loved more than my two husbands. And, that I was looking for a spiritual match. Now, I know that's sorta like...Good luck with that. At my age, at least.
You're in communications as am I. I had difficulty with any app but Match in terms of what I could learn upfront with the amount of verbiage. Bumble was so little. Match the most. I know most people hate Match now. I get it. But the info upfront it provided....
Friends first is code for “I’m here to waste your time”. Are we in grade 7? Honestly. It’s a huge sign of immaturity.
Although as a woman I kind of like the idea of friends first. If the dude can’t be a decent friend then he ain’t gonna be a good partner. And I have tons of totally amazing friends so he has to be better than all them to be considered for partnership.
I would be saying, is he reliable and consistent like any good friend should be? Is he accountable? Can he work in shared projects together? Can he resolve conflicts? If he can’t do these basic things I expect of a friend then why on wary would I entertain the idea of having him as a partner? Often I’ve overlooked men’s rubbish qualities because butterflies and romance but I rather like the idea of seeing if they can be good friends first.
But yeah not interested in being strung along with some non committal dude who isn’t mature enough to get his act together and commit
Here’s my translations:
“I want butterflies…warm fuzzy feeling…soulmates…”
= I want things to be fun, fast and easy. I want sunshine, lollipops and rainbows. I am not up for hard conversations or accountability and you can’t make me because that’s gonna kill the inspiration. I don’t want the boring stuff (showing up, being consistent, predictable, responsive, accessible), I want excitement and sex and fun times and sex and hot girls and sex. I want someone attractive who looks at me and turns me into scrambled eggs. I don’t want to take care of you when you’re sick or old or injured or tired, or to mop the floor or make the bed or wash the dishes because that’s BORING and not BUTTERFLYING.
“I value EQ over IQ everytime.”
= A woman is not allowed to have an opinion or debate me intellectually but must give me warm fuzzies perpetually. Intellect is for men, although I’ll pretend I don’t value IQ in anyone. I will use emotion to manipulate you by saying I feel so “vulnerable” when you ask to hold me accountable or “shame” when you point out something I did, or “I need acceptance” when you’re asking me to treat you like an equal and to pick up my own damn socks.
“…honest…”
= I am a jealous guy and will judge you harshly for looking at and maintaining friendships with other men. You are guilty before proven innocent. I have trust issues. I’m insecure and controlling. Women are manipulative, unreliable and cannot be trusted. Therefore they deserve all the ill treatment they get.
“Must like dogs”
= I have a dog that’s a slob and I expect you to clean up after it
“Must like…decent films”
= I get to be the judge of what’s decent. Anything that doesn’t fit my definition is trashy.
Heh. My response if I were to see a profile like this, back in my quick hey day on the apps Jan. until March 2020...or in the future if I get back on, which I'm considering like maybe end of year, though I prefer/dream/wish for organic meeting, would be: Nope. Ick. Unrealistic.
I feel like if you entertain his butterflies, the minute the butterfly “flies” away, he needs to find a new one. Yes, based on his words, he is emotionally immature. He is definitely leaning into the chaos of the butterfly effect. I wonder if this is his way to start comparing you to his perfect woman idea.
Aside from the butterflies, he has already told us that you should be too smart as it will threaten his intelligence. Probably that high EQ desire means, don’t get upset when he neglects you or your needs. And of course, any movie you like that he doesn’t is a potential deal breaker.
Is there a cheat sheet of the rhetorical patterns available? Or perhaps a written summary of each? I love all the detailed explanations and examples, but my memory doesn’t keep things like it used to and I learn best by reading/seeing things. I’d love a list to prompt consideration of all of them. I
’d also LOVE more info about the book, because I will definitely be buying that as my dating bible! 💕📚 Thanks!
This is interesting. I think there are dangers in assuming that either a spark seeker or a seemingly solid one are going to be safe choices. While I agree there are dangers to love at first sight, there are also the ones that seem predictable but are living a double life. I don’t think there’s an easy answer other than being aware that sometimes nothing is as it seems and to act quickly no matter what the first impression is.
Again another sound piece if advice. I read recently a quote that said divorce is easy, it’s relationships that are hard. Choose wisely ladies.
Getting into a relationship is easy.
Getting out can be hard. Emotionally, financially, physically.
In a crazy way - this is one more version of a lack of accountability. I recognize now that I, too, wanted this. A freedom from all responsibility in the “choosing”. It was just “meant to be”, “outside our control”, “serendipitous”, etc etc.
But now I know for certain - it’s lack of accountability at its most revered and socially-acceptable point. That’s no longer for me. I now hold myself accountable in all (appropriate) things and desire a partner who is capable of the same.