Seeing this in profiles has always bothered me and has been an immediately swipe left, but I could never put my finger on why. Just that it seemed presumptuous for some reason. This explains it so well, thank you!
Imagine beginning told THIS IRL. Also, I was "asked' if I would be OK with inheriting 1/3 of his estate (insignificant value) when he died, which was contrary to state laws for widows. He was 15 years older and I'm sure his adult children were not going to be there nursing him at the end. I pity the woman who signed a prenup and had to tolerate the hazing and prioritizing of his adult children.
It is very helpful to read these breakdowns. It takes what was an uneasy feeling in one's gut to something stated in a profile and explains why you feel uneasy--and that you are not nuts! By understanding the unspoken intention behind the words, it provides empowerment to the reader to walk away from a first hint of inappropriate emotional makeup. I always thought "my kid comes first" was a statement that sounded challenging (dare you to suggest you might come first). Very helpful to read the more nuanced analysis contained here. Good stuff!
I wholeheartedly agree with this article, thank you. I've also observed first hand that men on the dating apps who cheat - and there are a lot more than we realize - use their children as an alibi for being with another woman (or multiple women, as is unfortunately the case). It's the perfect cover, and it should not go overlooked. Often when a man tells you upfront that his kids 'come first', he is doing this to set the stage for their upcoming unavailability, sometimes with no notice. It sounds so endearing, but as can be seen from thousands of reports coming from the "Are we dating the same Guy" facebook groups, a man claiming to always be 'putting his children first', is in fact seeing multiple women, and hasn't seen his children in months. Unfortunately this is much more common than we ever dreamed.
The guy I've started seeing is a Very Busy Man (full schedule of therapy clients, and a weekend gig caretaking for two adults with developmental disabilities.)
Do you know what's not in his profile? Anything about his schedule or demands on his time.
He was open about it after we had chatted for a while and had been on our first date. It wouldn't work for everyone, but it works for this Very Busy Woman.
Saying “my kids come first” is also a convenient back door out of a relationship at any time. “Sorry, but my kid isn’t comfortable with me dating right now … have to end this.” The kid doesn’t like you? “Bu’bye.”
The last man I dated who had kids pulled the “my teenage girl’s therapist recommended to not be around any of her parents’ romantic partners for [some arbitrary amount of time that made no sense so I didn’t bother to remember].
It was a good suggestion by the therapist, except for the lil detail that he and I had already been together for about a year, the latter six months of which was spent largely with his teenage daughters. We had traveled on what was essentially a family vacation for nearly two weeks out of state with them just a couple weeks before this alleged recommendation. Their mother essentially abandoned them, so if I couldn’t be around them, it meant I couldn’t be around him.
It was wildly illogical, and equally heartbreaking and enraging.
He didn’t want to break up, though.. 🙄
Well, until a couple weeks after that, when I had to be admitted to the hospital for IV antibiotics. Then he waited until my 40th birthday, which I spent alone in the hospital (ironically the one I was born in, full circle moment, my mom said it could be like a rebirth 🤣🤣) and I hadn’t heard from him until about 10pm when he called and dumped me over the phone… in the hospital… on my 40th birthday.. after a YEAR together!!
Of note: I unintentionally, in real life, met a man about a year after that who has exceeded the expectations I thought possible for any man other than my father, and he and I are living together and he’s still really the best thing.
Suddenly grateful that guy ended up dumping me over the phone in the hospital on my birthday.
He now talks to himself in my inbox every few weeks long diatribes about his regret and how amazing I am and how much he messed it all up and is so sorry and can’t stop thinking about me.
I read them to this wonderful, reliable man and laugh.
The other side of the coin is that there are childless women who date single dads and may be enthusiastic at first about kids but then grow weary of them, breaking not one heart but two or more. This rhetorical analysis does not reveal women’s speech patterns/red flags. In all fairness, I’d be curious to know what men read between our lines. 🙃
Women who are *childfree (as per the data, the vast majority are by choice) are not typically enthusiastic about a man's kids. If we date them, it's a huge sacrifice.
I always knew, whenever I read that comment, that it low level gave me ick. I’ve learned enough from you since I joined BHDM to know why but this article is a brilliant example of how text, subtext and context all work together.
Jennie - every time you open your mouth I learn something new! Thank you, from the bottom of my heart :)
BTW - I’m totally geeking out on the CDA and rhetorical patterns. It’s feeding my info starved brain in the best of ways!
I myself have used this phrase in my own profile and now I understand why I shouldn’t. One, I realize now how it comes across, and two, I realize how I’ve assumed I *need* to be the director of the relationship right off the bat which is not a healthy dynamic. Thank you, Jennie!!
My suspicion (not knowing you at all, lol), is that the reason you feel like you need to direct the relationship is that you've probably been partnered men who've opted out of so much emotional and logistical labor that it all fell to you, so of *course* you'd feel that way. 💙 Or maybe I'm projecting, ha ha ha, which is also possible given my own history! Thank you for reading and for your kind words :)
Honestly I didn’t even have to read the article to know what this was going to say. It’s my immediate thought whenever I read this line- “cool, so this person isn’t ever going to have time for me.” *swipes left*
All I have ever said on any dating profile regarding being a parent is that I am one and the stage of childhood parenting I was in and I just got the one.
Like once he (I rarely have hidden his gender and that is very much a reflection of the culture I live in!) became a teenager I said as such.
Currently on my profile:
I am a mom to a teenager son and one dog.
I think not stating you are a parent when you are is the most basic of life style information not being shared. If you just want to hook up then no need to bring up any part of your day! But if you are looking for regular companionship knowing that another person had/has childrearing experience is HUGE in being able to share life experiences.
I am really appreciating, at the age I am now at, guys stating that their adult kids live with them or are out of the house. That really is the most important thing to know! No need for detailed schedules beyond “50/50” is one parenting lingo. Because with that most basic of information someone automatically realizes understandable priorities. Or at least any decent person would!!!
Side note: I COMPLETELY understand closing comments on facebook!!! I also really appreciate your word definitions! They are good reminders to get in an academic frame of mind 🧐when reading your stuff 😁
Thank you for your support! I'm now beginning to get used to interacting on Substack more, and it's beginning to feel more natural! 😊 Also: agree with everything you're saying above!
Agree! Knowing this baseline type of info regarding children is really helpful while scanning profiles bc it really does convey all that is needed for a starting point.
This really resonates- even though I did not meet my ex on a dating app, nor did he ever warn me his eldest son would always come first over everyone and everything; (to the point I was alone raising our two kids most of the time because he had to do whatever his son wanted to do.) I found that he used him for an excuse even when his son was on vacation with the mother so it turned out to be total BS. At the same time I worry about wasting time w a man that ends up undeserving and losing time I could have dedicated to my children but honestly we have more to worry about than they do.
The way you explain the hierarchy is validating to me because it was never about the coming together of families, it was his excuse to not prioritize us or me, ever. Thank you
I commented as well - it's important to acknowledge that more men than we ever realized are using their children as an excuse either for cheating or as an avoidance mechanism.
That’s EXACTLY it! He would disappear out of the blue for hours on end, not answer calls or texts- and then say he had to do something w his son. Then, he would use DARVO on me; flipping the tables saying things like I want him to abandon his son, blah, blah, BS. It’s not that they put the kids first- it’s that they already have a good excuse locked and loaded as to why they put themselves first
Ground-breaking stuff! It never really made sense, especially to neglect some children in order to focus on one. I actually have an older son as well; but I had to juggle all three of them mostly alone, even a colicky new born.
( I did have an IUD when I conceived my third and foolishly believed he would change). I’m so glad women are talking and becoming more aware of all their mental games.
Thank you for this information...." it’s actually psychologically inappropriate to lay out a hierarchy of who’s most important to you; family systems thrive in interdependence and in the ABSENCE of those hierarchies"
This all validates the confusion I was feeling months before my now ex partner of four years ended our relationship. He started texting me that his, kids, job etc come first, which was the first time I had ever heard him express this type of hierarchy. In couples therapy I brought up feeling sad to suddenly be fourth place he got defensive and said he was trying to explain that this is all the time I have for you after all these other important things in my life. I'm healing the heartbreak and your wisdom and insight from the group is helpful in the process. 🙌
I don’t have kids - used to be a teacher & love kids, just didn’t want any of my own (yes I’m prob over explaining for a variety of reasons).
I dated someone who put ME first before his 5 yr old daughter. Which I thought was wrong. When I see that statement, I appreciate it & don’t think it’s negative. In addition. my dad, after my parents got divorced, put me first & that did not sit well w/ some of the women he dated. They wanted to be his Queen/Princess. Or some such nonsense.
So seeing this situation from different perspectives gives me a different perspective!
I deeply appreciate your work (and you as a person / scholar) and I agree with your analysis of the "my kids come first", nevertheless, your analogy between dating apps and "casual" situations IRL bothers me.
I would not compare a dating app to a working enviroment or the supermarket or any random place, because on a dating app people are explicitly looking for a relationship (of different kinds, surely). In my opinion dating apps are the new bars/clubs.
I would still expect basic social politeness and propriety in a bar or club, though, too. I wouldn't assume that me placing myself in a bar is a tacit show of consent for men to discuss my body, my child, my daily schedule; if anything, that would creep me out even *more* in a bar than it does on the apps.
I've opted out of dating for the forseeable future (because the state of men, hello? LOL) but when I was dating, the "my kids come first" men struck me the same way as the "I'm a very busy man" men, which was an instant disqualifier already BUT helped me specifically because I've decided not to date men with children. I don't want to deal with custody battles, child support, and the restrictions to my lifestyle that are caused by custody arrangements as well as restraints on travel or even prevent relocating to another state or country. So in that way, men who lead with "my kids" help me eject them faster! ;)
I feel this comment to my core. When I first started dating I was ready for friendship and that is what I stated up front. I just wanted to go on dates and meet people. I did not enjoy the process and only lasted three weeks on the app. I met one person who asked to date exclusively. I agreed with the caveat that I was not ready for anything serious. When he pushed for more I always pushed back with “my kids”. I knew it was an excuse at the time and ultimately ended things and haven’t dated since. I am still finding me now and enjoying every moment with my kids. I’m very sorry for your loss.
Seeing this in profiles has always bothered me and has been an immediately swipe left, but I could never put my finger on why. Just that it seemed presumptuous for some reason. This explains it so well, thank you!
You are very welcome ❤️
Imagine beginning told THIS IRL. Also, I was "asked' if I would be OK with inheriting 1/3 of his estate (insignificant value) when he died, which was contrary to state laws for widows. He was 15 years older and I'm sure his adult children were not going to be there nursing him at the end. I pity the woman who signed a prenup and had to tolerate the hazing and prioritizing of his adult children.
It is very helpful to read these breakdowns. It takes what was an uneasy feeling in one's gut to something stated in a profile and explains why you feel uneasy--and that you are not nuts! By understanding the unspoken intention behind the words, it provides empowerment to the reader to walk away from a first hint of inappropriate emotional makeup. I always thought "my kid comes first" was a statement that sounded challenging (dare you to suggest you might come first). Very helpful to read the more nuanced analysis contained here. Good stuff!
The first part of your paragraph reads like an excellent review of Jennie’s writing. Put that on the back of a book! From “It…makeup.”
I wholeheartedly agree with this article, thank you. I've also observed first hand that men on the dating apps who cheat - and there are a lot more than we realize - use their children as an alibi for being with another woman (or multiple women, as is unfortunately the case). It's the perfect cover, and it should not go overlooked. Often when a man tells you upfront that his kids 'come first', he is doing this to set the stage for their upcoming unavailability, sometimes with no notice. It sounds so endearing, but as can be seen from thousands of reports coming from the "Are we dating the same Guy" facebook groups, a man claiming to always be 'putting his children first', is in fact seeing multiple women, and hasn't seen his children in months. Unfortunately this is much more common than we ever dreamed.
Yes, agree. Sad but true 😢
If the news these days hasn't convinced us that men behave much worse than we even suspected, then we are not actually listening to the news. 😔
This is my experience as well 💯
The guy I've started seeing is a Very Busy Man (full schedule of therapy clients, and a weekend gig caretaking for two adults with developmental disabilities.)
Do you know what's not in his profile? Anything about his schedule or demands on his time.
He was open about it after we had chatted for a while and had been on our first date. It wouldn't work for everyone, but it works for this Very Busy Woman.
This all sounds wonderful to me ❤️
Saying “my kids come first” is also a convenient back door out of a relationship at any time. “Sorry, but my kid isn’t comfortable with me dating right now … have to end this.” The kid doesn’t like you? “Bu’bye.”
The last man I dated who had kids pulled the “my teenage girl’s therapist recommended to not be around any of her parents’ romantic partners for [some arbitrary amount of time that made no sense so I didn’t bother to remember].
It was a good suggestion by the therapist, except for the lil detail that he and I had already been together for about a year, the latter six months of which was spent largely with his teenage daughters. We had traveled on what was essentially a family vacation for nearly two weeks out of state with them just a couple weeks before this alleged recommendation. Their mother essentially abandoned them, so if I couldn’t be around them, it meant I couldn’t be around him.
It was wildly illogical, and equally heartbreaking and enraging.
He didn’t want to break up, though.. 🙄
Well, until a couple weeks after that, when I had to be admitted to the hospital for IV antibiotics. Then he waited until my 40th birthday, which I spent alone in the hospital (ironically the one I was born in, full circle moment, my mom said it could be like a rebirth 🤣🤣) and I hadn’t heard from him until about 10pm when he called and dumped me over the phone… in the hospital… on my 40th birthday.. after a YEAR together!!
Of note: I unintentionally, in real life, met a man about a year after that who has exceeded the expectations I thought possible for any man other than my father, and he and I are living together and he’s still really the best thing.
Suddenly grateful that guy ended up dumping me over the phone in the hospital on my birthday.
He now talks to himself in my inbox every few weeks long diatribes about his regret and how amazing I am and how much he messed it all up and is so sorry and can’t stop thinking about me.
I read them to this wonderful, reliable man and laugh.
I have never replied.
The other side of the coin is that there are childless women who date single dads and may be enthusiastic at first about kids but then grow weary of them, breaking not one heart but two or more. This rhetorical analysis does not reveal women’s speech patterns/red flags. In all fairness, I’d be curious to know what men read between our lines. 🙃
This sounds like a great project for someone (but not for me; my concerns lie with women).
You mean, if they read the profiles at all? 😅
Women who are *childfree (as per the data, the vast majority are by choice) are not typically enthusiastic about a man's kids. If we date them, it's a huge sacrifice.
I always knew, whenever I read that comment, that it low level gave me ick. I’ve learned enough from you since I joined BHDM to know why but this article is a brilliant example of how text, subtext and context all work together.
Jennie - every time you open your mouth I learn something new! Thank you, from the bottom of my heart :)
BTW - I’m totally geeking out on the CDA and rhetorical patterns. It’s feeding my info starved brain in the best of ways!
this makes me soooo happy, thank you! 🥰
I myself have used this phrase in my own profile and now I understand why I shouldn’t. One, I realize now how it comes across, and two, I realize how I’ve assumed I *need* to be the director of the relationship right off the bat which is not a healthy dynamic. Thank you, Jennie!!
My suspicion (not knowing you at all, lol), is that the reason you feel like you need to direct the relationship is that you've probably been partnered men who've opted out of so much emotional and logistical labor that it all fell to you, so of *course* you'd feel that way. 💙 Or maybe I'm projecting, ha ha ha, which is also possible given my own history! Thank you for reading and for your kind words :)
Honestly I didn’t even have to read the article to know what this was going to say. It’s my immediate thought whenever I read this line- “cool, so this person isn’t ever going to have time for me.” *swipes left*
All I have ever said on any dating profile regarding being a parent is that I am one and the stage of childhood parenting I was in and I just got the one.
Like once he (I rarely have hidden his gender and that is very much a reflection of the culture I live in!) became a teenager I said as such.
Currently on my profile:
I am a mom to a teenager son and one dog.
I think not stating you are a parent when you are is the most basic of life style information not being shared. If you just want to hook up then no need to bring up any part of your day! But if you are looking for regular companionship knowing that another person had/has childrearing experience is HUGE in being able to share life experiences.
I am really appreciating, at the age I am now at, guys stating that their adult kids live with them or are out of the house. That really is the most important thing to know! No need for detailed schedules beyond “50/50” is one parenting lingo. Because with that most basic of information someone automatically realizes understandable priorities. Or at least any decent person would!!!
Side note: I COMPLETELY understand closing comments on facebook!!! I also really appreciate your word definitions! They are good reminders to get in an academic frame of mind 🧐when reading your stuff 😁
Thank you for your support! I'm now beginning to get used to interacting on Substack more, and it's beginning to feel more natural! 😊 Also: agree with everything you're saying above!
Agree! Knowing this baseline type of info regarding children is really helpful while scanning profiles bc it really does convey all that is needed for a starting point.
This really resonates- even though I did not meet my ex on a dating app, nor did he ever warn me his eldest son would always come first over everyone and everything; (to the point I was alone raising our two kids most of the time because he had to do whatever his son wanted to do.) I found that he used him for an excuse even when his son was on vacation with the mother so it turned out to be total BS. At the same time I worry about wasting time w a man that ends up undeserving and losing time I could have dedicated to my children but honestly we have more to worry about than they do.
Amen. I'm sorry you had this experience 😢. You are definitely not alone. 💙
The way you explain the hierarchy is validating to me because it was never about the coming together of families, it was his excuse to not prioritize us or me, ever. Thank you
I commented as well - it's important to acknowledge that more men than we ever realized are using their children as an excuse either for cheating or as an avoidance mechanism.
That’s EXACTLY it! He would disappear out of the blue for hours on end, not answer calls or texts- and then say he had to do something w his son. Then, he would use DARVO on me; flipping the tables saying things like I want him to abandon his son, blah, blah, BS. It’s not that they put the kids first- it’s that they already have a good excuse locked and loaded as to why they put themselves first
I’m amazed that this is not talked about more because it is so so so common! The untouchable excuse!
Ground-breaking stuff! It never really made sense, especially to neglect some children in order to focus on one. I actually have an older son as well; but I had to juggle all three of them mostly alone, even a colicky new born.
( I did have an IUD when I conceived my third and foolishly believed he would change). I’m so glad women are talking and becoming more aware of all their mental games.
Thank you for this information...." it’s actually psychologically inappropriate to lay out a hierarchy of who’s most important to you; family systems thrive in interdependence and in the ABSENCE of those hierarchies"
This all validates the confusion I was feeling months before my now ex partner of four years ended our relationship. He started texting me that his, kids, job etc come first, which was the first time I had ever heard him express this type of hierarchy. In couples therapy I brought up feeling sad to suddenly be fourth place he got defensive and said he was trying to explain that this is all the time I have for you after all these other important things in my life. I'm healing the heartbreak and your wisdom and insight from the group is helpful in the process. 🙌
I don’t have kids - used to be a teacher & love kids, just didn’t want any of my own (yes I’m prob over explaining for a variety of reasons).
I dated someone who put ME first before his 5 yr old daughter. Which I thought was wrong. When I see that statement, I appreciate it & don’t think it’s negative. In addition. my dad, after my parents got divorced, put me first & that did not sit well w/ some of the women he dated. They wanted to be his Queen/Princess. Or some such nonsense.
So seeing this situation from different perspectives gives me a different perspective!
This is everything I love about BHDM and why I'm so excited about the Rhetoric in Daily Live class!
I have had sooo many frustrating conversations with people/singles who just. don't. get. it.
Yup 🙄
I'm super excited for the course too! 😊
I deeply appreciate your work (and you as a person / scholar) and I agree with your analysis of the "my kids come first", nevertheless, your analogy between dating apps and "casual" situations IRL bothers me.
I would not compare a dating app to a working enviroment or the supermarket or any random place, because on a dating app people are explicitly looking for a relationship (of different kinds, surely). In my opinion dating apps are the new bars/clubs.
I would still expect basic social politeness and propriety in a bar or club, though, too. I wouldn't assume that me placing myself in a bar is a tacit show of consent for men to discuss my body, my child, my daily schedule; if anything, that would creep me out even *more* in a bar than it does on the apps.
I've opted out of dating for the forseeable future (because the state of men, hello? LOL) but when I was dating, the "my kids come first" men struck me the same way as the "I'm a very busy man" men, which was an instant disqualifier already BUT helped me specifically because I've decided not to date men with children. I don't want to deal with custody battles, child support, and the restrictions to my lifestyle that are caused by custody arrangements as well as restraints on travel or even prevent relocating to another state or country. So in that way, men who lead with "my kids" help me eject them faster! ;)
This post reminded me that I’m not ready for a proper relationship as I say this.
I fear being overwhelmed by a relationship on top of my parenting role as a widow alongside complex grief recovery.
I’ll prioritise the relationship with myself atm which feels fair to myself and a guy too ❤️🩹
I feel this comment to my core. When I first started dating I was ready for friendship and that is what I stated up front. I just wanted to go on dates and meet people. I did not enjoy the process and only lasted three weeks on the app. I met one person who asked to date exclusively. I agreed with the caveat that I was not ready for anything serious. When he pushed for more I always pushed back with “my kids”. I knew it was an excuse at the time and ultimately ended things and haven’t dated since. I am still finding me now and enjoying every moment with my kids. I’m very sorry for your loss.