Seeing this in profiles has always bothered me and has been an immediately swipe left, but I could never put my finger on why. Just that it seemed presumptuous for some reason. This explains it so well, thank you!
It is very helpful to read these breakdowns. It takes what was an uneasy feeling in one's gut to something stated in a profile and explains why you feel uneasy--and that you are not nuts! By understanding the unspoken intention behind the words, it provides empowerment to the reader to walk away from a first hint of inappropriate emotional makeup. I always thought "my kid comes first" was a statement that sounded challenging (dare you to suggest you might come first). Very helpful to read the more nuanced analysis contained here. Good stuff!
The guy I've started seeing is a Very Busy Man (full schedule of therapy clients, and a weekend gig caretaking for two adults with developmental disabilities.)
Do you know what's not in his profile? Anything about his schedule or demands on his time.
He was open about it after we had chatted for a while and had been on our first date. It wouldn't work for everyone, but it works for this Very Busy Woman.
Saying “my kids come first” is also a convenient back door out of a relationship at any time. “Sorry, but my kid isn’t comfortable with me dating right now … have to end this.” The kid doesn’t like you? “Bu’bye.”
The other side of the coin is that there are childless women who date single dads and may be enthusiastic at first about kids but then grow weary of them, breaking not one heart but two or more. This rhetorical analysis does not reveal women’s speech patterns/red flags. In all fairness, I’d be curious to know what men read between our lines. 🙃
I myself have used this phrase in my own profile and now I understand why I shouldn’t. One, I realize now how it comes across, and two, I realize how I’ve assumed I *need* to be the director of the relationship right off the bat which is not a healthy dynamic. Thank you, Jennie!!
My suspicion (not knowing you at all, lol), is that the reason you feel like you need to direct the relationship is that you've probably been partnered men who've opted out of so much emotional and logistical labor that it all fell to you, so of *course* you'd feel that way. 💙 Or maybe I'm projecting, ha ha ha, which is also possible given my own history! Thank you for reading and for your kind words :)
I always knew, whenever I read that comment, that it low level gave me ick. I’ve learned enough from you since I joined BHDM to know why but this article is a brilliant example of how text, subtext and context all work together.
Jennie - every time you open your mouth I learn something new! Thank you, from the bottom of my heart :)
BTW - I’m totally geeking out on the CDA and rhetorical patterns. It’s feeding my info starved brain in the best of ways!
I wholeheartedly agree with this article, thank you. I've also observed first hand that men on the dating apps who cheat - and there are a lot more than we realize - use their children as an alibi for being with another woman (or multiple women, as is unfortunately the case). It's the perfect cover, and it should not go overlooked. Often when a man tells you upfront that his kids 'come first', he is doing this to set the stage for their upcoming unavailability, sometimes with no notice. It sounds so endearing, but as can be seen from thousands of reports coming from the "Are we dating the same Guy" facebook groups, a man claiming to always be 'putting his children first', is in fact seeing multiple women, and hasn't seen his children in months. Unfortunately this is much more common than we ever dreamed.
Honestly I didn’t even have to read the article to know what this was going to say. It’s my immediate thought whenever I read this line- “cool, so this person isn’t ever going to have time for me.” *swipes left*
This really resonates- even though I did not meet my ex on a dating app, nor did he ever warn me his eldest son would always come first over everyone and everything; (to the point I was alone raising our two kids most of the time because he had to do whatever his son wanted to do.) I found that he used him for an excuse even when his son was on vacation with the mother so it turned out to be total BS. At the same time I worry about wasting time w a man that ends up undeserving and losing time I could have dedicated to my children but honestly we have more to worry about than they do.
The way you explain the hierarchy is validating to me because it was never about the coming together of families, it was his excuse to not prioritize us or me, ever. Thank you
I commented as well - it's important to acknowledge that more men than we ever realized are using their children as an excuse either for cheating or as an avoidance mechanism.
That’s EXACTLY it! He would disappear out of the blue for hours on end, not answer calls or texts- and then say he had to do something w his son. Then, he would use DARVO on me; flipping the tables saying things like I want him to abandon his son, blah, blah, BS. It’s not that they put the kids first- it’s that they already have a good excuse locked and loaded as to why they put themselves first
Ground-breaking stuff! It never really made sense, especially to neglect some children in order to focus on one. I actually have an older son as well; but I had to juggle all three of them mostly alone, even a colicky new born.
( I did have an IUD when I conceived my third and foolishly believed he would change). I’m so glad women are talking and becoming more aware of all their mental games.
All I have ever said on any dating profile regarding being a parent is that I am one and the stage of childhood parenting I was in and I just got the one.
Like once he (I rarely have hidden his gender and that is very much a reflection of the culture I live in!) became a teenager I said as such.
Currently on my profile:
I am a mom to a teenager son and one dog.
I think not stating you are a parent when you are is the most basic of life style information not being shared. If you just want to hook up then no need to bring up any part of your day! But if you are looking for regular companionship knowing that another person had/has childrearing experience is HUGE in being able to share life experiences.
I am really appreciating, at the age I am now at, guys stating that their adult kids live with them or are out of the house. That really is the most important thing to know! No need for detailed schedules beyond “50/50” is one parenting lingo. Because with that most basic of information someone automatically realizes understandable priorities. Or at least any decent person would!!!
Side note: I COMPLETELY understand closing comments on facebook!!! I also really appreciate your word definitions! They are good reminders to get in an academic frame of mind 🧐when reading your stuff 😁
Thank you for your support! I'm now beginning to get used to interacting on Substack more, and it's beginning to feel more natural! 😊 Also: agree with everything you're saying above!
I deeply appreciate your work (and you as a person / scholar) and I agree with your analysis of the "my kids come first", nevertheless, your analogy between dating apps and "casual" situations IRL bothers me.
I would not compare a dating app to a working enviroment or the supermarket or any random place, because on a dating app people are explicitly looking for a relationship (of different kinds, surely). In my opinion dating apps are the new bars/clubs.
I would still expect basic social politeness and propriety in a bar or club, though, too. I wouldn't assume that me placing myself in a bar is a tacit show of consent for men to discuss my body, my child, my daily schedule; if anything, that would creep me out even *more* in a bar than it does on the apps.
I don’t have kids - used to be a teacher & love kids, just didn’t want any of my own (yes I’m prob over explaining for a variety of reasons).
I dated someone who put ME first before his 5 yr old daughter. Which I thought was wrong. When I see that statement, I appreciate it & don’t think it’s negative. In addition. my dad, after my parents got divorced, put me first & that did not sit well w/ some of the women he dated. They wanted to be his Queen/Princess. Or some such nonsense.
So seeing this situation from different perspectives gives me a different perspective!
I do not agree with this, honestly. First, while I am totally open to raising somebody else's kids, many women are not. The step-mother syndrome is real. A lot of women go after men who already have kids but are unable to accept the step kids, and may even become abusive or nudge neglecting behavior as soon as their own kid is born. So no, that "my kids come first" is a given is absolutely not true, neither from the incoming nor from the outcoming site, lots of people neglect their firstborn children for their new lover and their new kids. My cousin's mother abandoned him as a teen because her new lover didn't want him.
And thus, I am totally fine with not coming first. If you want to come first with a guy who already has kids, you are one of the women mentioned above. And maybe shouldn't look for a guy who already has kids.
On the other hand, if the profile says “Family is really important to me” or “I’m a family-oriented person”, this communicates something completely different to me. First, I wouldn't assume this family to refer to his kids, but to the entire other family baggage like parents and grand parents and aunts and uncles. Honestly, for me this is a much more problematic flag because it would imply to me that the guy is not entirely thinking dependent but that his family will have a say in everything he does, especially his mom.
And "I'm a family-oriented person" is more of a sentence to me that I would see as a given, but if it is pronounced like this, I am thinking of a traditional guy who is looking for a stay-at-home mom for his kids and I would absolutely be out.
I’m interested in the part about discussing daily schedules being inappropriate. Why is this? I’ve recently run into this, and thought it was odd that someone would ask when I’m going into work and when I get off work, but I cannot put a finger on why?
I think it lands wrong for two reasons: 1. It's presumptuous -- they're assuming you'll be planning around them. 2. It's way too soon and feels intrusive if not threatening and stalkerish.
I think I would actually be intentionally direct and see how he handles it; that's a good way to test for toxicity, to see if he can recognize and respect boundaries. I think you could say something like, "I don't discuss my daily schedule with people I don't have real life relationships with," and then just continue with whatever else you're talking about. This doesn't need to be a "fight"; it's a neutral statement of your position.
Thank you for this! You are making me feel sane again. I'm grad student and I was dating another grad student who used a phrase that was something to the effect of "my PhD comes first." It irked me, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it until now.
Seeing this in profiles has always bothered me and has been an immediately swipe left, but I could never put my finger on why. Just that it seemed presumptuous for some reason. This explains it so well, thank you!
You are very welcome ❤️
It is very helpful to read these breakdowns. It takes what was an uneasy feeling in one's gut to something stated in a profile and explains why you feel uneasy--and that you are not nuts! By understanding the unspoken intention behind the words, it provides empowerment to the reader to walk away from a first hint of inappropriate emotional makeup. I always thought "my kid comes first" was a statement that sounded challenging (dare you to suggest you might come first). Very helpful to read the more nuanced analysis contained here. Good stuff!
The first part of your paragraph reads like an excellent review of Jennie’s writing. Put that on the back of a book! From “It…makeup.”
The guy I've started seeing is a Very Busy Man (full schedule of therapy clients, and a weekend gig caretaking for two adults with developmental disabilities.)
Do you know what's not in his profile? Anything about his schedule or demands on his time.
He was open about it after we had chatted for a while and had been on our first date. It wouldn't work for everyone, but it works for this Very Busy Woman.
This all sounds wonderful to me ❤️
Saying “my kids come first” is also a convenient back door out of a relationship at any time. “Sorry, but my kid isn’t comfortable with me dating right now … have to end this.” The kid doesn’t like you? “Bu’bye.”
The other side of the coin is that there are childless women who date single dads and may be enthusiastic at first about kids but then grow weary of them, breaking not one heart but two or more. This rhetorical analysis does not reveal women’s speech patterns/red flags. In all fairness, I’d be curious to know what men read between our lines. 🙃
This sounds like a great project for someone (but not for me; my concerns lie with women).
You mean, if they read the profiles at all? 😅
I myself have used this phrase in my own profile and now I understand why I shouldn’t. One, I realize now how it comes across, and two, I realize how I’ve assumed I *need* to be the director of the relationship right off the bat which is not a healthy dynamic. Thank you, Jennie!!
My suspicion (not knowing you at all, lol), is that the reason you feel like you need to direct the relationship is that you've probably been partnered men who've opted out of so much emotional and logistical labor that it all fell to you, so of *course* you'd feel that way. 💙 Or maybe I'm projecting, ha ha ha, which is also possible given my own history! Thank you for reading and for your kind words :)
I always knew, whenever I read that comment, that it low level gave me ick. I’ve learned enough from you since I joined BHDM to know why but this article is a brilliant example of how text, subtext and context all work together.
Jennie - every time you open your mouth I learn something new! Thank you, from the bottom of my heart :)
BTW - I’m totally geeking out on the CDA and rhetorical patterns. It’s feeding my info starved brain in the best of ways!
this makes me soooo happy, thank you! 🥰
I wholeheartedly agree with this article, thank you. I've also observed first hand that men on the dating apps who cheat - and there are a lot more than we realize - use their children as an alibi for being with another woman (or multiple women, as is unfortunately the case). It's the perfect cover, and it should not go overlooked. Often when a man tells you upfront that his kids 'come first', he is doing this to set the stage for their upcoming unavailability, sometimes with no notice. It sounds so endearing, but as can be seen from thousands of reports coming from the "Are we dating the same Guy" facebook groups, a man claiming to always be 'putting his children first', is in fact seeing multiple women, and hasn't seen his children in months. Unfortunately this is much more common than we ever dreamed.
Yes, agree. Sad but true 😢
Honestly I didn’t even have to read the article to know what this was going to say. It’s my immediate thought whenever I read this line- “cool, so this person isn’t ever going to have time for me.” *swipes left*
This really resonates- even though I did not meet my ex on a dating app, nor did he ever warn me his eldest son would always come first over everyone and everything; (to the point I was alone raising our two kids most of the time because he had to do whatever his son wanted to do.) I found that he used him for an excuse even when his son was on vacation with the mother so it turned out to be total BS. At the same time I worry about wasting time w a man that ends up undeserving and losing time I could have dedicated to my children but honestly we have more to worry about than they do.
Amen. I'm sorry you had this experience 😢. You are definitely not alone. 💙
The way you explain the hierarchy is validating to me because it was never about the coming together of families, it was his excuse to not prioritize us or me, ever. Thank you
I commented as well - it's important to acknowledge that more men than we ever realized are using their children as an excuse either for cheating or as an avoidance mechanism.
That’s EXACTLY it! He would disappear out of the blue for hours on end, not answer calls or texts- and then say he had to do something w his son. Then, he would use DARVO on me; flipping the tables saying things like I want him to abandon his son, blah, blah, BS. It’s not that they put the kids first- it’s that they already have a good excuse locked and loaded as to why they put themselves first
I’m amazed that this is not talked about more because it is so so so common! The untouchable excuse!
Ground-breaking stuff! It never really made sense, especially to neglect some children in order to focus on one. I actually have an older son as well; but I had to juggle all three of them mostly alone, even a colicky new born.
( I did have an IUD when I conceived my third and foolishly believed he would change). I’m so glad women are talking and becoming more aware of all their mental games.
All I have ever said on any dating profile regarding being a parent is that I am one and the stage of childhood parenting I was in and I just got the one.
Like once he (I rarely have hidden his gender and that is very much a reflection of the culture I live in!) became a teenager I said as such.
Currently on my profile:
I am a mom to a teenager son and one dog.
I think not stating you are a parent when you are is the most basic of life style information not being shared. If you just want to hook up then no need to bring up any part of your day! But if you are looking for regular companionship knowing that another person had/has childrearing experience is HUGE in being able to share life experiences.
I am really appreciating, at the age I am now at, guys stating that their adult kids live with them or are out of the house. That really is the most important thing to know! No need for detailed schedules beyond “50/50” is one parenting lingo. Because with that most basic of information someone automatically realizes understandable priorities. Or at least any decent person would!!!
Side note: I COMPLETELY understand closing comments on facebook!!! I also really appreciate your word definitions! They are good reminders to get in an academic frame of mind 🧐when reading your stuff 😁
Thank you for your support! I'm now beginning to get used to interacting on Substack more, and it's beginning to feel more natural! 😊 Also: agree with everything you're saying above!
This is everything I love about BHDM and why I'm so excited about the Rhetoric in Daily Live class!
I have had sooo many frustrating conversations with people/singles who just. don't. get. it.
Yup 🙄
I'm super excited for the course too! 😊
I deeply appreciate your work (and you as a person / scholar) and I agree with your analysis of the "my kids come first", nevertheless, your analogy between dating apps and "casual" situations IRL bothers me.
I would not compare a dating app to a working enviroment or the supermarket or any random place, because on a dating app people are explicitly looking for a relationship (of different kinds, surely). In my opinion dating apps are the new bars/clubs.
I would still expect basic social politeness and propriety in a bar or club, though, too. I wouldn't assume that me placing myself in a bar is a tacit show of consent for men to discuss my body, my child, my daily schedule; if anything, that would creep me out even *more* in a bar than it does on the apps.
I don’t have kids - used to be a teacher & love kids, just didn’t want any of my own (yes I’m prob over explaining for a variety of reasons).
I dated someone who put ME first before his 5 yr old daughter. Which I thought was wrong. When I see that statement, I appreciate it & don’t think it’s negative. In addition. my dad, after my parents got divorced, put me first & that did not sit well w/ some of the women he dated. They wanted to be his Queen/Princess. Or some such nonsense.
So seeing this situation from different perspectives gives me a different perspective!
I do not agree with this, honestly. First, while I am totally open to raising somebody else's kids, many women are not. The step-mother syndrome is real. A lot of women go after men who already have kids but are unable to accept the step kids, and may even become abusive or nudge neglecting behavior as soon as their own kid is born. So no, that "my kids come first" is a given is absolutely not true, neither from the incoming nor from the outcoming site, lots of people neglect their firstborn children for their new lover and their new kids. My cousin's mother abandoned him as a teen because her new lover didn't want him.
And thus, I am totally fine with not coming first. If you want to come first with a guy who already has kids, you are one of the women mentioned above. And maybe shouldn't look for a guy who already has kids.
On the other hand, if the profile says “Family is really important to me” or “I’m a family-oriented person”, this communicates something completely different to me. First, I wouldn't assume this family to refer to his kids, but to the entire other family baggage like parents and grand parents and aunts and uncles. Honestly, for me this is a much more problematic flag because it would imply to me that the guy is not entirely thinking dependent but that his family will have a say in everything he does, especially his mom.
And "I'm a family-oriented person" is more of a sentence to me that I would see as a given, but if it is pronounced like this, I am thinking of a traditional guy who is looking for a stay-at-home mom for his kids and I would absolutely be out.
Just my 2 cents.
I’m interested in the part about discussing daily schedules being inappropriate. Why is this? I’ve recently run into this, and thought it was odd that someone would ask when I’m going into work and when I get off work, but I cannot put a finger on why?
I think it lands wrong for two reasons: 1. It's presumptuous -- they're assuming you'll be planning around them. 2. It's way too soon and feels intrusive if not threatening and stalkerish.
What are some polite ways to not respond to these questions if that’s the only thing someone is giving red flags on, but is otherwise a nice guy?
I think I would actually be intentionally direct and see how he handles it; that's a good way to test for toxicity, to see if he can recognize and respect boundaries. I think you could say something like, "I don't discuss my daily schedule with people I don't have real life relationships with," and then just continue with whatever else you're talking about. This doesn't need to be a "fight"; it's a neutral statement of your position.
Great question!
I would wonder if they either want to stalk me or rob my flat.
Thank you for this! You are making me feel sane again. I'm grad student and I was dating another grad student who used a phrase that was something to the effect of "my PhD comes first." It irked me, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it until now.