Thank you for calling out the massive disconnect between the innovation they bring forth in their work lives and the helplessness, laziness, and lack of motivation they fall back on in their personal lives.
Ah -- so that's what's wrecking their confidence. I think awareness that your work is not your own (and neither is the credit) must be a disconnect so profound it might be impossible for those that do steal to pretzel themselves into feeling even a modicum of self-worth. And I am not talking about some noisy display of arrogance, aka Self-Loathing So Loud It's a Tell.
YES! I say often that these tools presumably know how to write a resume and present themselves for a job interview. And yet, what has the potential to be one of the most important "interviews" of their lives, and they... can't/don't/won't
I commented recently on another post about the so-called "male loneliness epidemic," saying "Men would rather be right than be loved." And WHEW, the stampede of men rushing to prove me right. It's wild.
Yikes. That’s so hair-trigger close to what my Nex (narcissist ex) used to say every time I called out his gaslighting. He used to say, “Would you rather be right or would you rather be happy?” That simple question started an incremental breakdown of my inner being. Of course I wanted to be happy, so I stopped fighting against the incongruencies between his words and his actions. I was his boiling frog. 🐸
That was an adjacently-related tangent (thank you, ADHD + CPTSD), but I think maybe the need to be right might be a red flag for narcissistic tendencies. 🤔
I think men are lazy when it comes to women period, it even extends into marriage. I'm recently separated, about a year + out and this reminds me of a conversation I had with my ex recently. He was laid off a few months ago and has been interviewing for jobs and keeps me in the loop. I said to him, I'm sure they will think you are great because when it comes to work, he will give it 110%. He says, yeah, "everyone else thinks I'm great, except you." I was like, if you had put forth 50% of the effort in our marriage as you do with your jobs, we would not be in the middle of a divorce right now. Now, don't even get me going about dating. I'm a standstill with that and I don't have the energy to navigate this so called dating scene. Last year, I reconnected with a "friend" from years ago and was like "would you like to have a thing, like we used to have. I'm not looking for anything serious, but friendship, the occasional "fun" with clear communication and respect for one another." Cool Cool Cool. It went beautifully for like half a second and then he fumbled things so hard it wasn't even funny. Like, how you do fumble that? It was clearly communicated and agreed upon and then you make plans with me, don't connect the day of or several days after and then wonder why I may be upset. This man had the entire nerve to then tell me that this was a thread in his life and that trauma is what leads him here. Boy, get it together, you are a 48 year old man. You have trauma, I have trauma, we all have fucking trauma!! It's not an excuse for being a shitty human being and for that reason I'm out. You are not gonna be out here wrecking my nervous system. I would rather remain celibate for the rest of my life than deal with that shit. My take on all of this, men are lazy and do not fucking care because there will always someone out there who will accept the absolute bare minimum from them and cater to their "trauma." Sigh.....I was one of those women for entirely too long.
Fewer and fewer women seem to be willing, though. I think once you see internalized misogyny you can't unsee it. I've read hundreds of BHDM FB posts from women saying, "no more."
I quit men last year and decided to take a vow of celibacy for 12 months. Just reached the milestone and last night slept with a beautiful woman. Scary and new and foreign but also not at all. I dont think I want to go back
I think this article and the NYT article ignore the reality that men see no need to “improve.” That’s our perspective on them, not theirs. They don’t want to change to be what women want, because they don’t care what women want. At all. They don’t actually see women as fully human, and they resent that women are no longer willing to be unpaid sexual and domestic servants while getting nothing but neglect and abuse in return. In this sense, you’re the enemy, because you’re giving women the tools and confidence to B2B these guys.
They go online and complain over and over that women don’t act like women of their mothers’ generation. Their solution is to lecture women *more* about what men want from women. (Someone even came into the comments on this page, of all pages, to do so!) And when that doesn’t work, they threaten to stop dating women (MGTOW) while continuing to lecture us even more scathingly about everything wrong with us. And since that still isn’t working, their solution is to try to legislate us out of public life and back into the kitchen (see Project 2025). This is the solution they want. Not changing to be more appealing to women. No, lock the women back up!
I hope we’re seeing an extinction burst, but I don’t expect it to go quickly or peacefully. We’re talking about thousands of years of women’s survival depending on pleasing the men in their lives, and MEN EXPECTING TO BE CATERED TO. They don’t seem inclined to give that up easily. Not the majority, anyway.
For now, I think our only options are to keep sifting for needles or to stop trying with men. Is that fatalistic? Sure. The reality that I see is that the vast majority of men seem to despise and resent women, so they’re absolutely not going to listen and learn. If they were willing to do that, we wouldn’t be in this mess.
I feel like this is such an oversimplification and ugh, the “get out and f*** us” is just so problematic. This version of man is only one version that led to the issue - the other version is the guy who only wants to f*** and will definitely leave the house for that.
That said - I do think what we need to see a change in the dating space is for men to actually care about the issues. A gamification, if you will. When will it be cool and competitive for them to treat their dates and their girlfriends well? When will they shame their buddies for being douche-y?
The whole NYT article is more complex. It raises the question for straight women of what to do with our desire in the face of a demographic of very disappointing men--for me, it was really smart and kind of sad. Love that Jennie turned it into a challenge.
They don't need it easier for them. They really need to HEAL themselves and put on effort. So NO. They don't need it easier - they have had it easy. Now they have not have mini boys who do the same bs.
I love how you're approaching this! Trying to "teach" individual men while dating or living with them does *not* work. Getting them as a group to shift and grow at least has a shot at working.
I really hope this takes off. I spent my career in a male-dominated field (computer hardware), grew up with only brothers, have only sons. If anyone has a good shot at finding a solid hetero partner, I do, but every time I've tried dating (over the last 10 years) I come up against, "Are men really this ignorant?" Thank you for your work. I hope they collectively wake up. It's a big, beautiful world put there and there are plenty of women who would love a solid, intelligent partner.
The full article in the NYT was an interesting read.
Cultivating platonic relationships and a wider community has been far less stressful than dating post-divorce. I've also been very purposeful in having date nights with myself at a show.
Having a better relationship with my Self has shown that the vast majority of terrible romantic relationships I've had with men over the years were performed out of some weird sense of obligation to society or family or biology or something. Since starting my mid-life awakening, I'm realizing more and more that I am worthy of so much more than what a hetero-normative romantic relationship can offer.
Maybe I will be single for the rest of my life. That is admittedly a scary thing to think about, but I am confident that I will not be alone.
Scooch over. You’re not alone. I’ve been single for 10 years—so far. A few disastrous first dates with walking BHDM rhetorical patterns (before I knew what to look for). A few FWBs along the way (kind men who I enjoyed their company, but not my needles and I wasn’t theirs). I will say, single life is sooo much more peaceful, and there is so much freedom in not catering to what men want. I pursue my hobbies and random interests, enjoy engaging with activity partners and social acquaintances, and relax in the quiet of my own company (except when I’m blasting music and dancing around in the kitchen while I’m cooking). 10/10 Highly recommend. 🙌🏼
After reading Joe Newman’s “Raising Lions”, I’m convinced that most men are stuck emotionally in toddler omnipotence.
The belief that the world revolves around themselves, other people are an extension of themselves, magical thinking, tantrums, lack theory of mind, no ability to understand climate change.
This explains the incredible progress in their work and literal toddler behavior in relationships.
How do you deal with toddlers?
Immediate, firm consequences. Don’t give in to tantrums. Don’t let them cross a boundary, give in once and it’s incredibly hard to walk that back. Don’t let them made big decisions, encourage them to feel their feelings and definitely don’t let them get into the weapons.
We can help toddlers grow into interdependence by literally being bigger than them and not letting them take over.
Grown toddlers who won’t let mom win this time? That’s a threat to your safety. Get out, they can’t be reasoned with, they’re in their emotional brain.
Examples of grown toddlers: domestic abusers, Trump, Hitler, North Korea is an entire population tormented by a family of grown toddlers who think they are gods!
Yeah, but who wants to be in a relationship with a toddler? For the record I completely agree with this - but also think once you’ve accepted that most men have the emotional maturity of a toddler, a chance at any genuine intimate relationship with one goes out of the window. It’s hopeless!
Not worth the work. Toddlers grow up.abd with your guidance can become whole, thoughtful, responsible people. Toddler men....let's face it, it's really too late about 99% of the time
Exactly! You can try to parent them but they aren’t going to listen.
I imagine that’s why they look at you and your words/emotions with amused detachment.
Like a toddler with a kitten and a real gun and no supervision.
They just aren’t capable of the impulse control needed, understanding the kitten isn’t a toy, and maybe cause and effect.
Nor for a relationship.
I think an example of an emotionally mature grown man is Micheal Taft (podcast: deconstructing yourself)
I’m guessing the true adult men aren’t bothering with power struggles or politics unless they really have drive. Possibly at the height of their craft or hiding in universities. Some exist!
But yeah… I don’t know that I’ve met many in my life.
Thank you for calling out the massive disconnect between the innovation they bring forth in their work lives and the helplessness, laziness, and lack of motivation they fall back on in their personal lives.
Well, as we come to find out tho, quite often they are stealing the work of POC, women, etc and taking credit.
Ah -- so that's what's wrecking their confidence. I think awareness that your work is not your own (and neither is the credit) must be a disconnect so profound it might be impossible for those that do steal to pretzel themselves into feeling even a modicum of self-worth. And I am not talking about some noisy display of arrogance, aka Self-Loathing So Loud It's a Tell.
YES, so much this, too!
THIS! Men are ENTIRELY capable
YES! I say often that these tools presumably know how to write a resume and present themselves for a job interview. And yet, what has the potential to be one of the most important "interviews" of their lives, and they... can't/don't/won't
I commented recently on another post about the so-called "male loneliness epidemic," saying "Men would rather be right than be loved." And WHEW, the stampede of men rushing to prove me right. It's wild.
Yikes. That’s so hair-trigger close to what my Nex (narcissist ex) used to say every time I called out his gaslighting. He used to say, “Would you rather be right or would you rather be happy?” That simple question started an incremental breakdown of my inner being. Of course I wanted to be happy, so I stopped fighting against the incongruencies between his words and his actions. I was his boiling frog. 🐸
That was an adjacently-related tangent (thank you, ADHD + CPTSD), but I think maybe the need to be right might be a red flag for narcissistic tendencies. 🤔
I think men are lazy when it comes to women period, it even extends into marriage. I'm recently separated, about a year + out and this reminds me of a conversation I had with my ex recently. He was laid off a few months ago and has been interviewing for jobs and keeps me in the loop. I said to him, I'm sure they will think you are great because when it comes to work, he will give it 110%. He says, yeah, "everyone else thinks I'm great, except you." I was like, if you had put forth 50% of the effort in our marriage as you do with your jobs, we would not be in the middle of a divorce right now. Now, don't even get me going about dating. I'm a standstill with that and I don't have the energy to navigate this so called dating scene. Last year, I reconnected with a "friend" from years ago and was like "would you like to have a thing, like we used to have. I'm not looking for anything serious, but friendship, the occasional "fun" with clear communication and respect for one another." Cool Cool Cool. It went beautifully for like half a second and then he fumbled things so hard it wasn't even funny. Like, how you do fumble that? It was clearly communicated and agreed upon and then you make plans with me, don't connect the day of or several days after and then wonder why I may be upset. This man had the entire nerve to then tell me that this was a thread in his life and that trauma is what leads him here. Boy, get it together, you are a 48 year old man. You have trauma, I have trauma, we all have fucking trauma!! It's not an excuse for being a shitty human being and for that reason I'm out. You are not gonna be out here wrecking my nervous system. I would rather remain celibate for the rest of my life than deal with that shit. My take on all of this, men are lazy and do not fucking care because there will always someone out there who will accept the absolute bare minimum from them and cater to their "trauma." Sigh.....I was one of those women for entirely too long.
Fewer and fewer women seem to be willing, though. I think once you see internalized misogyny you can't unsee it. I've read hundreds of BHDM FB posts from women saying, "no more."
That’s the hope.
Yep.
I love this... stop watching so much porn, it’s making you all lazy and antisocial and weird. -- Spot on Jennie!!
It also makes them impotent.
I quit men last year and decided to take a vow of celibacy for 12 months. Just reached the milestone and last night slept with a beautiful woman. Scary and new and foreign but also not at all. I dont think I want to go back
I love this for you <3
I think this article and the NYT article ignore the reality that men see no need to “improve.” That’s our perspective on them, not theirs. They don’t want to change to be what women want, because they don’t care what women want. At all. They don’t actually see women as fully human, and they resent that women are no longer willing to be unpaid sexual and domestic servants while getting nothing but neglect and abuse in return. In this sense, you’re the enemy, because you’re giving women the tools and confidence to B2B these guys.
They go online and complain over and over that women don’t act like women of their mothers’ generation. Their solution is to lecture women *more* about what men want from women. (Someone even came into the comments on this page, of all pages, to do so!) And when that doesn’t work, they threaten to stop dating women (MGTOW) while continuing to lecture us even more scathingly about everything wrong with us. And since that still isn’t working, their solution is to try to legislate us out of public life and back into the kitchen (see Project 2025). This is the solution they want. Not changing to be more appealing to women. No, lock the women back up!
I hope we’re seeing an extinction burst, but I don’t expect it to go quickly or peacefully. We’re talking about thousands of years of women’s survival depending on pleasing the men in their lives, and MEN EXPECTING TO BE CATERED TO. They don’t seem inclined to give that up easily. Not the majority, anyway.
For now, I think our only options are to keep sifting for needles or to stop trying with men. Is that fatalistic? Sure. The reality that I see is that the vast majority of men seem to despise and resent women, so they’re absolutely not going to listen and learn. If they were willing to do that, we wouldn’t be in this mess.
THIS.
For the first time in my life, I would rather be single than dating.
Me too.
I feel like this is such an oversimplification and ugh, the “get out and f*** us” is just so problematic. This version of man is only one version that led to the issue - the other version is the guy who only wants to f*** and will definitely leave the house for that.
That said - I do think what we need to see a change in the dating space is for men to actually care about the issues. A gamification, if you will. When will it be cool and competitive for them to treat their dates and their girlfriends well? When will they shame their buddies for being douche-y?
The whole NYT article is more complex. It raises the question for straight women of what to do with our desire in the face of a demographic of very disappointing men--for me, it was really smart and kind of sad. Love that Jennie turned it into a challenge.
I agree. It was a very complex essay that asked more questions than there are currently answers for. It is well worth reading the entire piece.
Could you point me in the direction of that article, please? i’m new here…
They don't need it easier for them. They really need to HEAL themselves and put on effort. So NO. They don't need it easier - they have had it easy. Now they have not have mini boys who do the same bs.
I love the psychology of this. We no longer find you worth our time - prove us wrong!
I love how you're approaching this! Trying to "teach" individual men while dating or living with them does *not* work. Getting them as a group to shift and grow at least has a shot at working.
I really hope this takes off. I spent my career in a male-dominated field (computer hardware), grew up with only brothers, have only sons. If anyone has a good shot at finding a solid hetero partner, I do, but every time I've tried dating (over the last 10 years) I come up against, "Are men really this ignorant?" Thank you for your work. I hope they collectively wake up. It's a big, beautiful world put there and there are plenty of women who would love a solid, intelligent partner.
This is so so so good
Thank you!
The full article in the NYT was an interesting read.
Cultivating platonic relationships and a wider community has been far less stressful than dating post-divorce. I've also been very purposeful in having date nights with myself at a show.
Having a better relationship with my Self has shown that the vast majority of terrible romantic relationships I've had with men over the years were performed out of some weird sense of obligation to society or family or biology or something. Since starting my mid-life awakening, I'm realizing more and more that I am worthy of so much more than what a hetero-normative romantic relationship can offer.
Maybe I will be single for the rest of my life. That is admittedly a scary thing to think about, but I am confident that I will not be alone.
Scooch over. You’re not alone. I’ve been single for 10 years—so far. A few disastrous first dates with walking BHDM rhetorical patterns (before I knew what to look for). A few FWBs along the way (kind men who I enjoyed their company, but not my needles and I wasn’t theirs). I will say, single life is sooo much more peaceful, and there is so much freedom in not catering to what men want. I pursue my hobbies and random interests, enjoy engaging with activity partners and social acquaintances, and relax in the quiet of my own company (except when I’m blasting music and dancing around in the kitchen while I’m cooking). 10/10 Highly recommend. 🙌🏼
Being a single lady about town has worked out well so far! I totally agree with you, and you wrote about your experience beautifully.
I feel and relate with every word of this!
After reading Joe Newman’s “Raising Lions”, I’m convinced that most men are stuck emotionally in toddler omnipotence.
The belief that the world revolves around themselves, other people are an extension of themselves, magical thinking, tantrums, lack theory of mind, no ability to understand climate change.
This explains the incredible progress in their work and literal toddler behavior in relationships.
How do you deal with toddlers?
Immediate, firm consequences. Don’t give in to tantrums. Don’t let them cross a boundary, give in once and it’s incredibly hard to walk that back. Don’t let them made big decisions, encourage them to feel their feelings and definitely don’t let them get into the weapons.
We can help toddlers grow into interdependence by literally being bigger than them and not letting them take over.
Grown toddlers who won’t let mom win this time? That’s a threat to your safety. Get out, they can’t be reasoned with, they’re in their emotional brain.
Examples of grown toddlers: domestic abusers, Trump, Hitler, North Korea is an entire population tormented by a family of grown toddlers who think they are gods!
Once you see it, you can’t unsee it.
Yeah, but who wants to be in a relationship with a toddler? For the record I completely agree with this - but also think once you’ve accepted that most men have the emotional maturity of a toddler, a chance at any genuine intimate relationship with one goes out of the window. It’s hopeless!
Not worth the work. Toddlers grow up.abd with your guidance can become whole, thoughtful, responsible people. Toddler men....let's face it, it's really too late about 99% of the time
Exactly! You can try to parent them but they aren’t going to listen.
I imagine that’s why they look at you and your words/emotions with amused detachment.
Like a toddler with a kitten and a real gun and no supervision.
They just aren’t capable of the impulse control needed, understanding the kitten isn’t a toy, and maybe cause and effect.
Nor for a relationship.
I think an example of an emotionally mature grown man is Micheal Taft (podcast: deconstructing yourself)
I’m guessing the true adult men aren’t bothering with power struggles or politics unless they really have drive. Possibly at the height of their craft or hiding in universities. Some exist!
But yeah… I don’t know that I’ve met many in my life.
Quiet quitting men is so perfect!
why be quiet?!
This won’t solve all of our troubles with men, but less “mankeeping” would help ease our burden in the area of emotional labor.
This is a gift article: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/28/well/family/mankeeping-definition.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Z08.Z04h.joMGdlLNvCC1&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Thank you for sharing!
You can't do more for someone than they are willing to do for themselves.