I don’t believe they’re even thinking about us when this happens. They are completely focused within their world, their needs, and their wants. Part of me is almost jealous—why can’t I live like this—solely for myself? I mean it’s exhausting to think of everyone else’s needs in addition to my own. 😜
This right here - it’s the most exhausting thing to think about others needs all day long, especially when they don’t seem to care about anyone but themselves.
I totally agree. I wonder what it’s like not to have 227 thoughts racing and needs to consider all the time.
My ex and I used to fight about this all the time. One of our children needed a lot of extra support and part of that included giving enough “heads up” time to transition from one activity to another. I was constantly thinking 10 steps ahead of this child while simultaneously managing the current status quo and figuring out what to make for dinner every damn day.
Speaking as a man, I believe you're completely right Kathleen. I actually came here to say that myself.
But it's not as completely selfish and narcissistic as it sounds, necessarily. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.
When I talk like this, I realize I only know my own schedule and not the other person's. And I trust the other person to take their own schedule into account when making plans and communicate that to me.
Plus, successful men tend to be proactive. That means they will communicate in terms of what they want to happen instead of in terms of the other person.
If Jennie thinks these two guys are generally good, evolved men, they're just communicating what is on their mind at the moment. It really doesn't go beyond that, and taking the worst direction when interpreting their words is a choice on the part of the listener, but not necessary a reflection of the person speaking.
In other words, they are not solely responsible for how you take their words. Taking someone's words in the worst possible way is a choice that the interpreter is making, not a choice that the speaker is responsible for on his own.
This is basic literary interpretation stuff - basic texture interpretation stuff. polysemy. Goes back to Socrates at least. It is also basic communication theory. it is also one of the deepest flaws of the whole burned haystack method. It's just always taking things in the worst way. It doesn't account for context or the person.
That being said, men could just change their phrasing a little bit in a very simple way to avoid creating this bad impression.
So in the future, instead of saying, let's have dinner, I might ask, are you available for dinner? And I will change this way of speaking just because I read Jennie's post, just to avoid creating the impression that I don't think she has anything else to do.
Which obviously in her case is completely not true. Ha.
On the other hand, in the future, if I'm dealing with someone who takes what I'm saying in the worst possible way regularly, my main responsibility is to tell them to f- off and never talk to me again. I don't have the time to deal with that insecure bullshit. I have enough of my own stuff going on and if people can't take what I'm saying in good faith, then I can't have a relationship with them. That's me burning the haystack.
and in fact, if you need people to communicate with you perfectly at all times in order to keep from writing them off, you will never have a successful relationship with anyone, romantic or professional or just friendship. That's a bullshit way to think.
Okay, here's the backstory on James Rovira above: I know him 🙄 --- he thinks we're friends (we're not). He's also an English professor, and we used to teach at the same institution. He's as much of a blowhard in person as he is in the comment above -- literally the KING of mansplaining (and has been since before the term "mansplaining" was even coined).
I never respond to him because that's what he wants, but I enjoyed reading all of your responses here 😂.
Jim has had *Thoughts* about pretty much everything I've written for the past 8 years since I left that school, but today's put me over the edge, lol --- I just blocked-to-burn him. 🔥
Right. What little kernel of truth he presented was washed away in the wake of his mansplaining and obtuseness. It totally passes over his head that a woman would almost never do this, and a man almost always would.
It's disheartening, especially when it even happens with your friends. I don't care how busy or professional the man is, you don't expect the woman to jump to meet you at the airport. Honestly, would he say that to a man? And that's probably what my gentle retort would be. Because it was a lost opportunity for a correction, though who could blame you with the week you're having.
Men always skip those little caveats and kindnesses that show they're not just selfishly craving your attention to fill some hole, but that it's because you're an actual human being with feelings and schedules and value. They need to put in those little qualifiers, like "I know you're swamped, but I just thought I'd put it out there just in case."
As to your original question, sadly yes! I still naively read half of your referenced profiles and think, "shrug, seems okay," until the dissection begins and I see the rhetorical pattern. Apparently I'm a slow learner. And of course getting beyond our ingrained habits, conditioning and subconscious desires is so hard! I am both saddened and relieved that you go through this as well. I catch myself with disappointment more often than I would like. Of course, there will always be con artists and narcissists out there. Maybe the reason the pace of society is so glacial is because it is within each of us.
We are realizing this isn't just a dating problem, but a man problem. But didn't we always know this, or at least suspect? I watch us having gone through the metoo movement, then the Barbie movement, and now the Burned Haystack movement. I wonder what will possibly incentivize men to start valuing women, as I fear we're at a dangerous crossroads where they have to decide between just taking what they want from us, or learning to evolve. Are they capable of evolving, truly? It's happened in a few societies in history, but can it happen here? Because they do need us more than we need them, at least above the subsistence levels, and what will that drive them to do? It seems like personal emotional responsibility is a place they just can't get to from here, and pride gets to all of them before the end. I suspect the answer might lie in mothers, and raising good men and teaching them to respect women. It's easier to change the coming generations then the existing ones.
Jennie, it's a true pleasure to get to share my thoughts with you personally, with you being so incredibly busy. It's really amazing that you still are able to interact so much with us as a group and individuals. I'm enjoying it now, 5 minutes before you burst into full-on flaming fame!!
Aww, thank YOU for this incredibly thoughtful and insightful response ❤️. I love engaging with this community and to be honest probably do it to a degree that's detrimental to other things I SHOULD be doing, but what can I say: it feeds my soul. 🥰
I so look forward to you becoming a New York Times bestselling author, and really launching this movement nationally, if not globally! Mark my words! You've done the work, and you have the ideas and the articulacy.
Sandy, please stop blaming the mothers as we get enough blame as it is. Why aren’t you blaming the fathers? Are they not part of the equation? Are they not in the household interacting with their sons? What about the concept of the dominant personality and the male to male connection. In my opinion, I’d say the fault lies with the fathers because they are the ones that have the more dominant and controlling characteristics that the sons gravitate to and follow. This is true when women stay whether they want to or not and even when they leave and the fathers have visitation or custody. So please stop blaming the Moms, women need support not blame. That has happened enough!
I'm not blaming the mothers, I'm stressing the importance of parenting in the context of treating boys to respect women and be sensitive and not entitled. And yes, of course you're right that men need to do it as well. But they are not part of this audience, and clearly not stepping up as they need to. We have less influence on them than we would like to have, either on husbands as fathers, or as husbands, or men in general, which is the reason I focus on the mothers who create these boys. Those are the ones we can reach.
I didn’t read it as you blaming mothers, more as you qspeaking to the power and opportunity we have in helping change a future generation of men, which may be an easier task than being able to change the current generation (the fathers).
I have two adult sons and they are better than their father. And yet, I’m just beginning to unlearn so much of this bullshit. I’ve passed on a lot of it unaware. Not blaming myself, just waking up to it.
When you know better…I’ve got the rest of my days as a mom to undo what I can, for my sons and my daughter, hoping they pass on less shit if they have children.
Thank you for thoughtful answer. I agree with you that the boys are the ones that we can reach. If I could turn back the clock, a couple of decades, and know what I know now…🩷
This!! There is a reason why the two happiest people are married men and single women… I am single and can’t help but notice the resounding amount of men that carry this mental and emotional gravitational pull that sums to have every one else’s world revolve around theirs.
Jim also significantly edited his post in the last few hours to sound "better" but kept his rage is intact: "I don't have the time to deal with that insecure bullshit."
Ha, don't worry about it! I had no idea he was following me on Substack, though I should have because he follows me everywhere. He's a man who needs attention and needs for the world to understand how smart he is. Which, to be fair, is accurate; he's very smart. He also has a LOT of blindspots and a humungous and insatiable ego, which you can definitely see here. 🙄
Agree. I am continually mystified by this, and the only conclusion I can come to is that they simply can never shut up long enough to consider the complexities. It's the only explanation that makes sense.
Same I replied and even though he won't see it (though he has means still, I'm sure, and probably his ego won't be able to withstand not using those to read this thread), I enjoyed replying. I don't use reddit anymore but if I did I would absolutely post his whingey rant in #Iamverysmart
No. You are incorrect. Do you notice that even in this comment you are gaslighting the listener? “Get my meaning not my words…it’s not my intention”. You sound like a fine person, as these described men seem to be as well, but this communication pattern inherently establishes a power differential in the relationship and can put additional responsibility on the woman. Agreed - it is 100% my responsibility and freedom to simply decline (as Jennie did) but the interaction grossly lacks consideration for the other person, which is a relational (less than logistical) problem. If you were the CEO of a company (or, a professor working full time who just started a new 800-person class outside the university while launching a book and hosting house guests) and I said, “I just had a window open up from 11-12pm, let’s have lunch” would you not feel I thought my time was more valuable than yours? I always play the “shoe on the other foot” game, especially when it comes to the “feel” of a relationship. Also, you mansplained the crap out of intelligent educated women, so there may be more to your internalized patriarchy than you see.
Are you telling a Professor of Linguistics (trained in classical and applied rhetoric; who wrote a textbook on high school culture using applied rhetoric, critical discourse analysis) that she is "... just always taking things in the worst way. It doesn't account for context or the person?" You must be joking. It is her job to apply context and the use of words, not use "basic communication theory."
Starting with "Speaking as a man" (and implicitly demanding more attention for that reason) says it all and proves Jennie‘s point beautifully. The audacity to mansplain in this of all comment threads …
You and these men may not have bad intentions. Jennie did not say that. That is you taking what Jennie said in the worst possible way. Exactly what you are lecturing her about. Jennie is saying that those men have internalized misogyny and so does she. Almost all of us do, to some degree. She also never said she was writing these men off. That is an assumption you're making. If they are generally decent men, they may be able to hear the criticism and evolve. If we write off everyone with internalized misogyny, we have to write ourselves off too.
So... you believe that successful women aren't proactive? Your entire post is based on the assumption that men are perfectly fine being self-centered, and women should just learn to deal with it.
"if you need people to communicate with you perfectly at all times... That's a bullshit way to think."
No one here is expecting perfection; what we ARE expecting is consideration - and your post says that even though you understand that (you admit to needing to change your way of speaking to show consideration of other people's schedules) the rest of your post is explaining why you shouldn't have to.
Successful men trying to be proactive? Then sir we successful women are also proactive. Don’t send a text asking to meet in your own time frame without making an appointment at least 1 month in advance, because we are busy making money to send men like you back to your original production place.
Consideration is a trait that most human look for in not only their partner but also in other relationships. I do think it’s basic etiquette to ask someone first if it’s convenient for them to meet at a certain time. Don’t you guys say that in professional emails all the time for meetings? Then why do you justify your own inconsideration when it comes to ask a woman out?
When someone doesn’t take into account my life and emotion then they’re out. I just don’t keep the relationship with them. Life is too short to be around people like that.
“Plus, successful men tend to be proactive. That means they will communicate in terms of what they want to happen instead of in terms of the other person.” This makes me think you’ve learned nothing from Dr. Young’s work. You’re admitting that this sort of man places himself above others and tries to get women to orbit him. And that’s totally fine with you. It’s also SO RUDE to mansplain literary interpretation and communication theory to Dr. Young. You say you’d change how you communicate based on her work, but you still show so much disrespect in this response. No wonder she has you blocked.
I buy all of that but I think that it's time for men to start thinking about how their words and actions are recieved rather than how they are intended. I often tell myself that my ex-husband "doesn't really mean to be so mean/rude/unkind/thoughtless (whatever it is that day). And my therapist will point out..."yes, but he doesn't mean NOT TO (be mean/rude/unkind/thoughtless) either". His whole life and career is based on him being a wise and intelligent counselor and I know he could learn how to communicate with me. He chooses not too. We're divorced so whatever but it is ridiculous how baffled he is when he does or says something egregious and I get upset. Not ridiculous really - just gaslighting bullshit. Being so thoughtless or unkind and then making himself the victim because I'm angry.
So your plan is to change your phrasing to give a false impression that you care and are thinking about the other person and considering their time? Is that what I’m hearing? Would this be true if the other person were a man? And it should be irrelevant, but what if you knew for a fact he was busier than you and unlikely to be available at some set window of time? Would you still ask this way? Here’s an idea, how about genuinely thinking about the other person regardless of who they are and how busy they may be and showing you care by not assuming your time is more valuable or your schedule is the only factor to consider.
I appreciate your thoughts. I have benefited greatly from the information provided by Jennie and the discussions amongst the group, and I also think this is definitely something worth noticing and discussing.
I appreciate your perspective and think things can get entirely too negative at times in the Burned Haystack community of women. We are human and sometimes communicate in imperfectly. Jennie just realized that she was missing something even though her whole life right now revolves around recognizing these patterns. Kind and conscientious men can miss things or communicate ineffectively at times, just ad I can and she can.
I agree that cutting someone off immediately when communication isn’t perfect would not be helpful (in established relationships). In this case, these are men that have already proven themselves. I think Jennie mentioning it would be part of good communication between people that already have an established relationship. No need to let anger fester or to cut off a relationship without discussion.
The key would be receptivity. You presented a different perspective, but also took into account the feelings that were expressed here and will be making efforts to change your language in the future. I think if we could all work with each other in that way that would be best case scenario and would be healthier and more productive and fulfilling for all.
This!! There is a reason why the two happiest people are married men and single women… I am single and can’t help but notice the resounding amount of men that carry this mental and emotional gravitational pull that seems to have every one else’s world revolve around theirs.
I had a similar “almost a needle” do the same thing a few weeks ago. When I said I already had plans - he came back with “I don’t think you really want to date”. I was very surprised by that response since conversation prior to that had been fantastic and it would have been our first meeting. I didn’t bother trying to explain my plans or how busy I was. Training him to understand is not my job. He is a grown ass man.
I agree completely! As a Haystacker, I have read so many times that is not our job to raise an adult man. Considering the overwhelming number of men who were taught entitlement was their birthright and have "mantrums" if they are challenged. Their time, plans and thoughts are more important than a woman's.
“I don’t think you really want to date” is pure manipulation. It is clear you don't want to date a man who expects you to make him a priority, unseen, pronto.
"The glacial pace of social evolution" is just that. Men have not gotten the memo and if they did, they won't read it.
Right because you are supposed to cancel your plans for him. SMH. And honestly historically many of us do. That’s why so many of us have the experience of our female friends disappearing when they have a man. Only to reappear when it’s over. Who is the real constant in our lives and who should be a priority?
What a presumptuous guy ! I do believe you are right, usually men don't even think about how their date idea might fit your schedule, but this guy is definitely not just oblivious. Clearly a B2B.
See I think a good guy might say he had a window open up and make the initial approach like his time is more valuable etc. etc.....but if told "this is the busiest week of my life can you come to me" he would say.....yes it will be quick but I can pick us up a sandwich? Obviously a "youre not ready to date" response is a "buh-bye".
I encountered the 'busy man' syndrome this week. I've been communicating with a guy I knew as a child. He consistently initiates the connection and we went on a few dates last year. I live in Italy, he lives in LA, but I travel here to see my family, so we were staying in touch and he was indicating how excited he was to see me, as I am coming this July. Literally, on the flight I receive a text telling me how he suddenly has friends coming to stay and he hopes I see him my first day on arrival as he will be very occupied? He knows I am welcoming a new grandchild, caretaking my mother, extra travel, stress and such and his message felt so 'me centric' and confusing, after his conversations about how special I am and wanting to really explore our connection. Thanks to your work I was able to immediately identify the pattern and then 'burn' the communication. Just said ' Wow, sorry to hear you got busy and enjoy your friends and summer'. He has been trying to back pedal (his friend cancelled, go figure), but I have held firm to my 'no' and feel like I dodged a huge bullet. (there were other red flag tests before this. Pushing boundaries. He's a 'special person, celeb style human) It feels like I let go of baggage with old outdated items. So liberating. Such a relief. Thank you Jennie!
Oh my god, this is exactly why I opt out of men, but for the love of peace, you’re literally traveling halfway across the world and this is what you get on the airplane?
So gross. So gross!!!! 🤮
So glad you said, “Nah, I have self-respect.”
Walking away is the best response to this kind of garbage.
I unfortunately have begun responding in an emascilated way. I respond to them in the way they communicate. I don't call them out. I simply prioritize myself and my wants. I will say things like "I am knitting" It is like saying "I have golf"
I will tell them that I have an activity that takes priority over their offer. No, "meet again next time" No indication of any desire as I want them to choose me without prompting.
I used run and juggle and move my life around. Now I will have a cup of tea and focus on me.
This is such a good idea. I used to have a friend who used to tell people, "I have to wash my hair" to decline invitations. "I am knitting" is another good one.
It's not just that they subconsciously expect you to be less busy. It's that they also subconsciously assume that whatever *you* might have going on, can't possibly be as important as what *they* have going on, and so you should be willing to move stuff around (or even cancel it, I've had men ask that with a straight face) in order to accommodate their schedule.
100% ! I have experienced this so often in my personal and professional life. I used to never notice this going on but would just feel like Jennie- annoyed but not sure why. Now I am quick to notice it because I have the experience of working with a couple of needles-but-not-my-needles who are considerate of my time and will always ask “Is this a good time for you?” because they respect that my schedule is just as busy and just as important as theirs.
I've had this happen several times on the apps. Men will tell me how busy they are. I get it! I am too. But they expect me to clear my schedule on their whim to meet.
I suspect part of this is men punishing us for succeeding. Yes, they have internalized the idea women are there to be supporting characters in their life, always availability to bolster them. But there is another layer. When a woman steps out of line in our culture—and most especially if she is successful in a way that challenges sexism—she will be punished by men. And one way men punish is by withholding.
IMO what a lot of popular culture right now is calling "avoidant men" is actually men punishing women by withholding. These same so-called avoidant men don't avoid when it is their male buddies asking them to football, or their boss asking them to do a task. Their avoidance only seems to appear when a woman has wants and needs. That's not really avoidance—it's selective dismissal and disregard. It happens most when a woman is stepping out of line, especially by being successful.
Isn’t it in the framing (indicating a presumption )? If they had said something like the following: “I’ve been trying to make time to see you and this opportunity just opened. Might this work for you?” That is different? As a divorced mom, sometimes I will approach others like this about opportunities
Absolutely. As Jennie often asks, "how else could this be said?" Can we together find a time that works for us both is VERY different from I have an hour for you to fit yourself into my schedule.
I work mainly in small businesses, therefore, I work with a lot of men. I'm very intelligent and accomplished, but I found that most men I've worked with find that unappealing in me. Not in a dating aspect, but in a professional aspect. Since coming across the Burned Haystack Dating Method, I am blown away at how much I'm realizing, by recognizing rhetorical patterns, what I have experienced in my profession. I did not knowing any better. It's so surreal. It's really helped me distress with regards to my profession. I no longer jump at any request, especially if it's unreasonable and dettrimental to my stress level. I've also come to terms with the fact that probably a significant amount of men will never like me in a professional atmosphere due to subconscious beliefs or patterns that we both exhibit, taught to us by society ( Even "nice" colleagues). I used to get so upset if I felt I " failed" an expectation (usually unrealistic). I now put myself first. I do not jump and make myself readily available or accommodating to any man or women in my professional setting. But what's more important, I don't feel inadequate or upset, because I did not meet their expectations. The Burned Haystack Dating Method has given me freedom in my profession. I set very clear boundaries. I put myself first. I know I do a very good job as a skilled professional. The most positive change that has happened is that I don't feel bad about their opinion of me, especially when they react to me in a way in which I describe as " Man tatrums".
This is due to me understanding subconscious rhetorical patterns that are happening. I can not thank The Burn Haystack Dating Method engouh for this. I am faced with these situations on a daily basis. The words I say to myself "Let Them" . I then move on with my day and do not spend any emotional energy on them. It's been very liberating for me.
I encountered this with a long-standing male friend from college. We’ve known each other for almost 40 yrs and, at this stage of my life, that history means a lot. He was passing through my city for a few hours and asked the night before if I could do breakfast the next day. His ask included an acknowledgment that this was last minute and that he knows I’m busy. Still, it felt a little too much like he was squeezing me in. I told him that I couldn’t do breakfast at 9:00 AM but that if he wanted to walk my dog with me at 7:30 AM we could meet. And there he was, right on time. We had a lovely walk and I felt like I had rewritten the narrative to meet my needs.
This landed at exactly the right moment, I guess the goddesses of dating knew I needed it today. I’ve been messaging on an app with a guy for the last week, no red flags, very appropriate. We were meeting today halfway between his place and mine but this morning he sent a text saying he’d “let me know what time” he can make it. He still works, I’m retired and I’m guessing he’s assuming I’ll make it work for his schedule but never asked if I could. Sigh. Another one bites the dust.
Affirming you & here to say — as a therapist and follower of your ideas — your responses to them were IMO healthy and had self-respect, an understanding of the level of connection with those individuals, and protection of your precious energy resources. We are super grateful for your teaching and also it’s not obliged in every case. This whole post was thoughtful and mindful of both others and yourself (self-respect is the part of the communication equation I think you expand upon). Can’t wait to read your book!! Don’t forget your self-care!! :):)
I struggle with this too. In conversation with a man I met on vacation, he suggested I meet him in his country in September. When I told him I was busy until the end of September and that we would need to plan something after that - his response was “you travel a lot”. I said. Yes so do you. He had just told me about his busy travel schedule. He then went back to talking about September, we can go to NYC, blah blah. I again repeated my plans and conversation over. Changed the subject. I’m starting to think it’s selfish. And they are so used to being the only one, number one, the boss bad habit. I’m now silent with this person.
Despite your long and deep expertise in this area, you do not have to hold yourself to an impossible standard of complete freedom from lifelong internalization of patriarchy, 100% immediacy and accuracy in bs detection, and obligation to teach the declined the errors of their ways. You can’t do all of this on a normal Tuesday, let alone when you are juggling way too much.
We hang on your every word because you are one of us —- competent, worthy, overworked, cautious, doing our best. So give yourself some grace, yes?
Btw, I am happily married for 40 years and follow your work with fascination. The rhetoric is everywhere, and so is the patriarchy.
This is a tough one for me. I know exactly what you’re talking about and I’ve been in similar situations. I agree with your response and if I had picked up on it, I would’ve responded the same. However, I can see how I would easily miss it. And, now that I will likely see it, it will still be hard to say no at the opportunity. While I have an active and full life, I still miss the companionship of “my person” since my husband died. It’s one thing to be OK spending time alone but it’s another thing to be lonely. Yes, I would rather be alone with myself than together with the wrong person, but the struggle is real. There just aren’t a lot of opportunities to engage with new potential companions and for that reason I think I could miss this very easily or, worse yet, choose to overlook just to get out and do something.
This! I feel exactly the same way. My partner died about 7 years ago. We had a good relationship and I miss that so much. On the other hand I’m overtly aware of bad behaviour and often just walk away from it. I don’t teach men, so I’d just choose me.
I posted a comment about my situation where I was the male in Jennie’s scenario. It’s more complex when there is history and personal knowledge of a person’s current situation. I think it’s better to err on the B2B route, but I’m glad my person of interest didn’t block and burn me because my last minute invite was authentic
In a situation like this, I’d ask myself, “Would it be *helpful* to call them out? Would it do any good?”
In most cases, I think I would just let them know that I was unavailable, as you did.
This aligns with the “no arguing with men on the Internet” guideline, in a broader way. We want to save our energy for things that will make a difference.
Yes... Yours is a clean and elegant solution. We do not educate, not even friends. But...where does this leave our existing relationships with friends, family, etc? I agree that educating them very rarely is the answer, but yet, there needs to be some other constructive option than just that, or just dropping the relationship. There may not be any answer to this apart from on a case-to-case basis, but I'm still wondering 😔🙄
I think the key is to continually operate within our own boundaries. This will evolve where people learn how to fit in or show themselves out. As a whole the more of us learning to do this will develop into the change over of the system little piece by little piece.
You make a very important point. If we already have a reasonably close relationship with someone, there would be a place for making a point of this. I think it takes practice to find out what works best.
When I was an undergrad 1990-1994, I felt most alive when studying gender relations and feminist literature such as Naomi’s Wolf’s “The Beauty Myth”. I had no idea that I had so internalized misogyny that I would spend the next 30 years in relationships with toxic men. Most recently, I accepted a relationship with a man who actually claimed that patriarchy was over and women should just stop blaming men. I am 52 now so I this was very recent and I am still healing. The sad thing is the first time he said that I didn’t leave him. I somehow justified it. I think it will take a lifetime to uncover all the ways that we have internalized stories about the superiority of men and the need for our own subservience. You are not alone, I am with you, and you make an enormous difference in our lives. Thank you for being a point of light, pointing me back to my great love of feminism and myself.
Your comment resonates with me so much. 51 and am reviewing how I recently accepted someone else's standards over mine. Glad we're both here and feeling reoriented!
I don’t believe they’re even thinking about us when this happens. They are completely focused within their world, their needs, and their wants. Part of me is almost jealous—why can’t I live like this—solely for myself? I mean it’s exhausting to think of everyone else’s needs in addition to my own. 😜
This right here - it’s the most exhausting thing to think about others needs all day long, especially when they don’t seem to care about anyone but themselves.
seriously! it would be so nice to be so selfish for even just one day :)
I totally agree. I wonder what it’s like not to have 227 thoughts racing and needs to consider all the time.
My ex and I used to fight about this all the time. One of our children needed a lot of extra support and part of that included giving enough “heads up” time to transition from one activity to another. I was constantly thinking 10 steps ahead of this child while simultaneously managing the current status quo and figuring out what to make for dinner every damn day.
Speaking as a man, I believe you're completely right Kathleen. I actually came here to say that myself.
But it's not as completely selfish and narcissistic as it sounds, necessarily. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.
When I talk like this, I realize I only know my own schedule and not the other person's. And I trust the other person to take their own schedule into account when making plans and communicate that to me.
Plus, successful men tend to be proactive. That means they will communicate in terms of what they want to happen instead of in terms of the other person.
If Jennie thinks these two guys are generally good, evolved men, they're just communicating what is on their mind at the moment. It really doesn't go beyond that, and taking the worst direction when interpreting their words is a choice on the part of the listener, but not necessary a reflection of the person speaking.
In other words, they are not solely responsible for how you take their words. Taking someone's words in the worst possible way is a choice that the interpreter is making, not a choice that the speaker is responsible for on his own.
This is basic literary interpretation stuff - basic texture interpretation stuff. polysemy. Goes back to Socrates at least. It is also basic communication theory. it is also one of the deepest flaws of the whole burned haystack method. It's just always taking things in the worst way. It doesn't account for context or the person.
That being said, men could just change their phrasing a little bit in a very simple way to avoid creating this bad impression.
So in the future, instead of saying, let's have dinner, I might ask, are you available for dinner? And I will change this way of speaking just because I read Jennie's post, just to avoid creating the impression that I don't think she has anything else to do.
Which obviously in her case is completely not true. Ha.
On the other hand, in the future, if I'm dealing with someone who takes what I'm saying in the worst possible way regularly, my main responsibility is to tell them to f- off and never talk to me again. I don't have the time to deal with that insecure bullshit. I have enough of my own stuff going on and if people can't take what I'm saying in good faith, then I can't have a relationship with them. That's me burning the haystack.
and in fact, if you need people to communicate with you perfectly at all times in order to keep from writing them off, you will never have a successful relationship with anyone, romantic or professional or just friendship. That's a bullshit way to think.
Okay, here's the backstory on James Rovira above: I know him 🙄 --- he thinks we're friends (we're not). He's also an English professor, and we used to teach at the same institution. He's as much of a blowhard in person as he is in the comment above -- literally the KING of mansplaining (and has been since before the term "mansplaining" was even coined).
I never respond to him because that's what he wants, but I enjoyed reading all of your responses here 😂.
Jim has had *Thoughts* about pretty much everything I've written for the past 8 years since I left that school, but today's put me over the edge, lol --- I just blocked-to-burn him. 🔥
Right. What little kernel of truth he presented was washed away in the wake of his mansplaining and obtuseness. It totally passes over his head that a woman would almost never do this, and a man almost always would.
It's disheartening, especially when it even happens with your friends. I don't care how busy or professional the man is, you don't expect the woman to jump to meet you at the airport. Honestly, would he say that to a man? And that's probably what my gentle retort would be. Because it was a lost opportunity for a correction, though who could blame you with the week you're having.
Men always skip those little caveats and kindnesses that show they're not just selfishly craving your attention to fill some hole, but that it's because you're an actual human being with feelings and schedules and value. They need to put in those little qualifiers, like "I know you're swamped, but I just thought I'd put it out there just in case."
As to your original question, sadly yes! I still naively read half of your referenced profiles and think, "shrug, seems okay," until the dissection begins and I see the rhetorical pattern. Apparently I'm a slow learner. And of course getting beyond our ingrained habits, conditioning and subconscious desires is so hard! I am both saddened and relieved that you go through this as well. I catch myself with disappointment more often than I would like. Of course, there will always be con artists and narcissists out there. Maybe the reason the pace of society is so glacial is because it is within each of us.
We are realizing this isn't just a dating problem, but a man problem. But didn't we always know this, or at least suspect? I watch us having gone through the metoo movement, then the Barbie movement, and now the Burned Haystack movement. I wonder what will possibly incentivize men to start valuing women, as I fear we're at a dangerous crossroads where they have to decide between just taking what they want from us, or learning to evolve. Are they capable of evolving, truly? It's happened in a few societies in history, but can it happen here? Because they do need us more than we need them, at least above the subsistence levels, and what will that drive them to do? It seems like personal emotional responsibility is a place they just can't get to from here, and pride gets to all of them before the end. I suspect the answer might lie in mothers, and raising good men and teaching them to respect women. It's easier to change the coming generations then the existing ones.
Jennie, it's a true pleasure to get to share my thoughts with you personally, with you being so incredibly busy. It's really amazing that you still are able to interact so much with us as a group and individuals. I'm enjoying it now, 5 minutes before you burst into full-on flaming fame!!
Aww, thank YOU for this incredibly thoughtful and insightful response ❤️. I love engaging with this community and to be honest probably do it to a degree that's detrimental to other things I SHOULD be doing, but what can I say: it feeds my soul. 🥰
I so look forward to you becoming a New York Times bestselling author, and really launching this movement nationally, if not globally! Mark my words! You've done the work, and you have the ideas and the articulacy.
Sandy, please stop blaming the mothers as we get enough blame as it is. Why aren’t you blaming the fathers? Are they not part of the equation? Are they not in the household interacting with their sons? What about the concept of the dominant personality and the male to male connection. In my opinion, I’d say the fault lies with the fathers because they are the ones that have the more dominant and controlling characteristics that the sons gravitate to and follow. This is true when women stay whether they want to or not and even when they leave and the fathers have visitation or custody. So please stop blaming the Moms, women need support not blame. That has happened enough!
Boys look up to their fathers on how to be a man, and unfortunately the majority of fathers model this shitty behavior.
I'm not blaming the mothers, I'm stressing the importance of parenting in the context of treating boys to respect women and be sensitive and not entitled. And yes, of course you're right that men need to do it as well. But they are not part of this audience, and clearly not stepping up as they need to. We have less influence on them than we would like to have, either on husbands as fathers, or as husbands, or men in general, which is the reason I focus on the mothers who create these boys. Those are the ones we can reach.
I didn’t read it as you blaming mothers, more as you qspeaking to the power and opportunity we have in helping change a future generation of men, which may be an easier task than being able to change the current generation (the fathers).
I have two adult sons and they are better than their father. And yet, I’m just beginning to unlearn so much of this bullshit. I’ve passed on a lot of it unaware. Not blaming myself, just waking up to it.
When you know better…I’ve got the rest of my days as a mom to undo what I can, for my sons and my daughter, hoping they pass on less shit if they have children.
Thank you for thoughtful answer. I agree with you that the boys are the ones that we can reach. If I could turn back the clock, a couple of decades, and know what I know now…🩷
This!! There is a reason why the two happiest people are married men and single women… I am single and can’t help but notice the resounding amount of men that carry this mental and emotional gravitational pull that sums to have every one else’s world revolve around theirs.
Jim also significantly edited his post in the last few hours to sound "better" but kept his rage is intact: "I don't have the time to deal with that insecure bullshit."
Me either, Jim!
Interesting. Wish I had seen his earlier response.
I didn't think to do a screenshot. My memory is he has just "polished" his rant.
Yessssss b-2-b him! But thanks for letting that comment sit, and posting about it on fb, I enjoyed reading the women’s responses!
Oy vey Jennie. The mansplaining of your area of expertise that you have to endure is unimaginable. I'm sure this is just one tiny example
He sure is interested in what you are doing for someone who "says" he isn't.
I guess I should have read the whole response thread before replying. ;)
omg I wish I had read this before I responded!
Ha, don't worry about it! I had no idea he was following me on Substack, though I should have because he follows me everywhere. He's a man who needs attention and needs for the world to understand how smart he is. Which, to be fair, is accurate; he's very smart. He also has a LOT of blindspots and a humungous and insatiable ego, which you can definitely see here. 🙄
It has always mystified me how some men who are intelligent are never quite smart enough to figure out how to be a genuinely good person.
Agree. I am continually mystified by this, and the only conclusion I can come to is that they simply can never shut up long enough to consider the complexities. It's the only explanation that makes sense.
Same I replied and even though he won't see it (though he has means still, I'm sure, and probably his ego won't be able to withstand not using those to read this thread), I enjoyed replying. I don't use reddit anymore but if I did I would absolutely post his whingey rant in #Iamverysmart
Oh boy. He lost me at, "Speaking like a man ..." and I read the rest in the voice of the Charlie Brown adults.
No. You are incorrect. Do you notice that even in this comment you are gaslighting the listener? “Get my meaning not my words…it’s not my intention”. You sound like a fine person, as these described men seem to be as well, but this communication pattern inherently establishes a power differential in the relationship and can put additional responsibility on the woman. Agreed - it is 100% my responsibility and freedom to simply decline (as Jennie did) but the interaction grossly lacks consideration for the other person, which is a relational (less than logistical) problem. If you were the CEO of a company (or, a professor working full time who just started a new 800-person class outside the university while launching a book and hosting house guests) and I said, “I just had a window open up from 11-12pm, let’s have lunch” would you not feel I thought my time was more valuable than yours? I always play the “shoe on the other foot” game, especially when it comes to the “feel” of a relationship. Also, you mansplained the crap out of intelligent educated women, so there may be more to your internalized patriarchy than you see.
Are you telling a Professor of Linguistics (trained in classical and applied rhetoric; who wrote a textbook on high school culture using applied rhetoric, critical discourse analysis) that she is "... just always taking things in the worst way. It doesn't account for context or the person?" You must be joking. It is her job to apply context and the use of words, not use "basic communication theory."
Good lord, James Rovira 🙄. I just posted the backstory on this guy somewhere in this thread. Thank you for defending me! ❤️
Yes! These were my thoughts exactly! Guy, are you serious right now? Jaw. On. Floor. Some people are unbelievable.
Men will invoke Socrates before going to therapy.
I want this T-shirt!
And do so loudly but incorrectly.
Mansplain much? 🙄
Starting with "Speaking as a man" (and implicitly demanding more attention for that reason) says it all and proves Jennie‘s point beautifully. The audacity to mansplain in this of all comment threads …
IIka, exactly. How could have this been said better? ;-) "Sucking all the oxygen out of the room as a man?"
My thoughts exactly Anita!
You and these men may not have bad intentions. Jennie did not say that. That is you taking what Jennie said in the worst possible way. Exactly what you are lecturing her about. Jennie is saying that those men have internalized misogyny and so does she. Almost all of us do, to some degree. She also never said she was writing these men off. That is an assumption you're making. If they are generally decent men, they may be able to hear the criticism and evolve. If we write off everyone with internalized misogyny, we have to write ourselves off too.
I love this! So right on Debbie!
"successful men tend to be proactive"
So... you believe that successful women aren't proactive? Your entire post is based on the assumption that men are perfectly fine being self-centered, and women should just learn to deal with it.
"if you need people to communicate with you perfectly at all times... That's a bullshit way to think."
No one here is expecting perfection; what we ARE expecting is consideration - and your post says that even though you understand that (you admit to needing to change your way of speaking to show consideration of other people's schedules) the rest of your post is explaining why you shouldn't have to.
You are missing the point. It is not about using perfect words. It is about the words you choose, and what that reveals about your way of thinking.
Successful men trying to be proactive? Then sir we successful women are also proactive. Don’t send a text asking to meet in your own time frame without making an appointment at least 1 month in advance, because we are busy making money to send men like you back to your original production place.
Consideration is a trait that most human look for in not only their partner but also in other relationships. I do think it’s basic etiquette to ask someone first if it’s convenient for them to meet at a certain time. Don’t you guys say that in professional emails all the time for meetings? Then why do you justify your own inconsideration when it comes to ask a woman out?
When someone doesn’t take into account my life and emotion then they’re out. I just don’t keep the relationship with them. Life is too short to be around people like that.
“Plus, successful men tend to be proactive. That means they will communicate in terms of what they want to happen instead of in terms of the other person.” This makes me think you’ve learned nothing from Dr. Young’s work. You’re admitting that this sort of man places himself above others and tries to get women to orbit him. And that’s totally fine with you. It’s also SO RUDE to mansplain literary interpretation and communication theory to Dr. Young. You say you’d change how you communicate based on her work, but you still show so much disrespect in this response. No wonder she has you blocked.
The first rule of comedy is: DON'T BLAME THE AUDIENCE. If you're not communicating effectively, that's on YOU.
You are 100% responsibe for both interrogating your true intentions and making them known and understood.
I buy all of that but I think that it's time for men to start thinking about how their words and actions are recieved rather than how they are intended. I often tell myself that my ex-husband "doesn't really mean to be so mean/rude/unkind/thoughtless (whatever it is that day). And my therapist will point out..."yes, but he doesn't mean NOT TO (be mean/rude/unkind/thoughtless) either". His whole life and career is based on him being a wise and intelligent counselor and I know he could learn how to communicate with me. He chooses not too. We're divorced so whatever but it is ridiculous how baffled he is when he does or says something egregious and I get upset. Not ridiculous really - just gaslighting bullshit. Being so thoughtless or unkind and then making himself the victim because I'm angry.
She is basing that hard stance on empirical evidence
James, this is 2025. We do not need a manspaliner. We never did need or want one. B2B
So your plan is to change your phrasing to give a false impression that you care and are thinking about the other person and considering their time? Is that what I’m hearing? Would this be true if the other person were a man? And it should be irrelevant, but what if you knew for a fact he was busier than you and unlikely to be available at some set window of time? Would you still ask this way? Here’s an idea, how about genuinely thinking about the other person regardless of who they are and how busy they may be and showing you care by not assuming your time is more valuable or your schedule is the only factor to consider.
I appreciate your thoughts. I have benefited greatly from the information provided by Jennie and the discussions amongst the group, and I also think this is definitely something worth noticing and discussing.
I appreciate your perspective and think things can get entirely too negative at times in the Burned Haystack community of women. We are human and sometimes communicate in imperfectly. Jennie just realized that she was missing something even though her whole life right now revolves around recognizing these patterns. Kind and conscientious men can miss things or communicate ineffectively at times, just ad I can and she can.
I agree that cutting someone off immediately when communication isn’t perfect would not be helpful (in established relationships). In this case, these are men that have already proven themselves. I think Jennie mentioning it would be part of good communication between people that already have an established relationship. No need to let anger fester or to cut off a relationship without discussion.
The key would be receptivity. You presented a different perspective, but also took into account the feelings that were expressed here and will be making efforts to change your language in the future. I think if we could all work with each other in that way that would be best case scenario and would be healthier and more productive and fulfilling for all.
Agree with all of this completely.
This!! There is a reason why the two happiest people are married men and single women… I am single and can’t help but notice the resounding amount of men that carry this mental and emotional gravitational pull that seems to have every one else’s world revolve around theirs.
I had a similar “almost a needle” do the same thing a few weeks ago. When I said I already had plans - he came back with “I don’t think you really want to date”. I was very surprised by that response since conversation prior to that had been fantastic and it would have been our first meeting. I didn’t bother trying to explain my plans or how busy I was. Training him to understand is not my job. He is a grown ass man.
You failed the "can I control her" test.
Yes probably dodged a narcissistic bullet there. And I would guess he was never a needle just imitating one.
I agree completely! As a Haystacker, I have read so many times that is not our job to raise an adult man. Considering the overwhelming number of men who were taught entitlement was their birthright and have "mantrums" if they are challenged. Their time, plans and thoughts are more important than a woman's.
“I don’t think you really want to date” is pure manipulation. It is clear you don't want to date a man who expects you to make him a priority, unseen, pronto.
"The glacial pace of social evolution" is just that. Men have not gotten the memo and if they did, they won't read it.
Whoa! What an AH.
Agreed: training men is not our job. They are so entitled, it never ceases to amaze me how much 😣
That was a manipulation attempt. He already understood what he was doing. Trying to explain or smooth things over would only have put you at risk.
Right because you are supposed to cancel your plans for him. SMH. And honestly historically many of us do. That’s why so many of us have the experience of our female friends disappearing when they have a man. Only to reappear when it’s over. Who is the real constant in our lives and who should be a priority?
What a presumptuous guy ! I do believe you are right, usually men don't even think about how their date idea might fit your schedule, but this guy is definitely not just oblivious. Clearly a B2B.
See I think a good guy might say he had a window open up and make the initial approach like his time is more valuable etc. etc.....but if told "this is the busiest week of my life can you come to me" he would say.....yes it will be quick but I can pick us up a sandwich? Obviously a "youre not ready to date" response is a "buh-bye".
I encountered the 'busy man' syndrome this week. I've been communicating with a guy I knew as a child. He consistently initiates the connection and we went on a few dates last year. I live in Italy, he lives in LA, but I travel here to see my family, so we were staying in touch and he was indicating how excited he was to see me, as I am coming this July. Literally, on the flight I receive a text telling me how he suddenly has friends coming to stay and he hopes I see him my first day on arrival as he will be very occupied? He knows I am welcoming a new grandchild, caretaking my mother, extra travel, stress and such and his message felt so 'me centric' and confusing, after his conversations about how special I am and wanting to really explore our connection. Thanks to your work I was able to immediately identify the pattern and then 'burn' the communication. Just said ' Wow, sorry to hear you got busy and enjoy your friends and summer'. He has been trying to back pedal (his friend cancelled, go figure), but I have held firm to my 'no' and feel like I dodged a huge bullet. (there were other red flag tests before this. Pushing boundaries. He's a 'special person, celeb style human) It feels like I let go of baggage with old outdated items. So liberating. Such a relief. Thank you Jennie!
Are you kidding me!!!!
Oh my god, this is exactly why I opt out of men, but for the love of peace, you’re literally traveling halfway across the world and this is what you get on the airplane?
So gross. So gross!!!! 🤮
So glad you said, “Nah, I have self-respect.”
Walking away is the best response to this kind of garbage.
Good for you!
Cheering you on, sister!
Thank you Melissa!
My hero ❤️
I unfortunately have begun responding in an emascilated way. I respond to them in the way they communicate. I don't call them out. I simply prioritize myself and my wants. I will say things like "I am knitting" It is like saying "I have golf"
I will tell them that I have an activity that takes priority over their offer. No, "meet again next time" No indication of any desire as I want them to choose me without prompting.
I used run and juggle and move my life around. Now I will have a cup of tea and focus on me.
This is such a good idea. I used to have a friend who used to tell people, "I have to wash my hair" to decline invitations. "I am knitting" is another good one.
I once told a guy that I couldn't go out with him that same night because I had to balance my checkbook. LOL.
Just came to say ‘sorry washing my hair’ 🤣
No need for “sorry”
As much as I love all of these, I still lean toward not needing to explain/provide an excuse. “That doesn’t work for me” is more than enough.
Me washing my hair would be in extremely sarcastic font
SO GOOD!!!
It's not just that they subconsciously expect you to be less busy. It's that they also subconsciously assume that whatever *you* might have going on, can't possibly be as important as what *they* have going on, and so you should be willing to move stuff around (or even cancel it, I've had men ask that with a straight face) in order to accommodate their schedule.
100% ! I have experienced this so often in my personal and professional life. I used to never notice this going on but would just feel like Jennie- annoyed but not sure why. Now I am quick to notice it because I have the experience of working with a couple of needles-but-not-my-needles who are considerate of my time and will always ask “Is this a good time for you?” because they respect that my schedule is just as busy and just as important as theirs.
I've had this happen several times on the apps. Men will tell me how busy they are. I get it! I am too. But they expect me to clear my schedule on their whim to meet.
I suspect part of this is men punishing us for succeeding. Yes, they have internalized the idea women are there to be supporting characters in their life, always availability to bolster them. But there is another layer. When a woman steps out of line in our culture—and most especially if she is successful in a way that challenges sexism—she will be punished by men. And one way men punish is by withholding.
IMO what a lot of popular culture right now is calling "avoidant men" is actually men punishing women by withholding. These same so-called avoidant men don't avoid when it is their male buddies asking them to football, or their boss asking them to do a task. Their avoidance only seems to appear when a woman has wants and needs. That's not really avoidance—it's selective dismissal and disregard. It happens most when a woman is stepping out of line, especially by being successful.
This comment has just changed my life by reframing my entire dating history while also giving me a new trajectory in future relationships.
If you ever come to the Seattle area… I owe you dinner and a hug.
and homemade cookies.
Seriously… thank you.
thank you!
Avoidant or withholding?
Oooh feelin’ it!!
Wow! Very perceptive. Thank you
I wholeheartedly agree
Isn’t it in the framing (indicating a presumption )? If they had said something like the following: “I’ve been trying to make time to see you and this opportunity just opened. Might this work for you?” That is different? As a divorced mom, sometimes I will approach others like this about opportunities
Absolutely. As Jennie often asks, "how else could this be said?" Can we together find a time that works for us both is VERY different from I have an hour for you to fit yourself into my schedule.
I work mainly in small businesses, therefore, I work with a lot of men. I'm very intelligent and accomplished, but I found that most men I've worked with find that unappealing in me. Not in a dating aspect, but in a professional aspect. Since coming across the Burned Haystack Dating Method, I am blown away at how much I'm realizing, by recognizing rhetorical patterns, what I have experienced in my profession. I did not knowing any better. It's so surreal. It's really helped me distress with regards to my profession. I no longer jump at any request, especially if it's unreasonable and dettrimental to my stress level. I've also come to terms with the fact that probably a significant amount of men will never like me in a professional atmosphere due to subconscious beliefs or patterns that we both exhibit, taught to us by society ( Even "nice" colleagues). I used to get so upset if I felt I " failed" an expectation (usually unrealistic). I now put myself first. I do not jump and make myself readily available or accommodating to any man or women in my professional setting. But what's more important, I don't feel inadequate or upset, because I did not meet their expectations. The Burned Haystack Dating Method has given me freedom in my profession. I set very clear boundaries. I put myself first. I know I do a very good job as a skilled professional. The most positive change that has happened is that I don't feel bad about their opinion of me, especially when they react to me in a way in which I describe as " Man tatrums".
This is due to me understanding subconscious rhetorical patterns that are happening. I can not thank The Burn Haystack Dating Method engouh for this. I am faced with these situations on a daily basis. The words I say to myself "Let Them" . I then move on with my day and do not spend any emotional energy on them. It's been very liberating for me.
Cassie Phillips for the win!
“Let them” all the way to our peace!
Gorgeously expressed!
YES, I'm ordering her book and Jennies! Oh boy, I wish I knew what I knew now, twenty years ago.My life would have been so much easier!
YES - Burned Haystack part two - men at work. I call them man-babies when they have their tantrums…the whining 🥱
I encountered this with a long-standing male friend from college. We’ve known each other for almost 40 yrs and, at this stage of my life, that history means a lot. He was passing through my city for a few hours and asked the night before if I could do breakfast the next day. His ask included an acknowledgment that this was last minute and that he knows I’m busy. Still, it felt a little too much like he was squeezing me in. I told him that I couldn’t do breakfast at 9:00 AM but that if he wanted to walk my dog with me at 7:30 AM we could meet. And there he was, right on time. We had a lovely walk and I felt like I had rewritten the narrative to meet my needs.
This landed at exactly the right moment, I guess the goddesses of dating knew I needed it today. I’ve been messaging on an app with a guy for the last week, no red flags, very appropriate. We were meeting today halfway between his place and mine but this morning he sent a text saying he’d “let me know what time” he can make it. He still works, I’m retired and I’m guessing he’s assuming I’ll make it work for his schedule but never asked if I could. Sigh. Another one bites the dust.
Affirming you & here to say — as a therapist and follower of your ideas — your responses to them were IMO healthy and had self-respect, an understanding of the level of connection with those individuals, and protection of your precious energy resources. We are super grateful for your teaching and also it’s not obliged in every case. This whole post was thoughtful and mindful of both others and yourself (self-respect is the part of the communication equation I think you expand upon). Can’t wait to read your book!! Don’t forget your self-care!! :):)
I struggle with this too. In conversation with a man I met on vacation, he suggested I meet him in his country in September. When I told him I was busy until the end of September and that we would need to plan something after that - his response was “you travel a lot”. I said. Yes so do you. He had just told me about his busy travel schedule. He then went back to talking about September, we can go to NYC, blah blah. I again repeated my plans and conversation over. Changed the subject. I’m starting to think it’s selfish. And they are so used to being the only one, number one, the boss bad habit. I’m now silent with this person.
Despite your long and deep expertise in this area, you do not have to hold yourself to an impossible standard of complete freedom from lifelong internalization of patriarchy, 100% immediacy and accuracy in bs detection, and obligation to teach the declined the errors of their ways. You can’t do all of this on a normal Tuesday, let alone when you are juggling way too much.
We hang on your every word because you are one of us —- competent, worthy, overworked, cautious, doing our best. So give yourself some grace, yes?
Btw, I am happily married for 40 years and follow your work with fascination. The rhetoric is everywhere, and so is the patriarchy.
This is a tough one for me. I know exactly what you’re talking about and I’ve been in similar situations. I agree with your response and if I had picked up on it, I would’ve responded the same. However, I can see how I would easily miss it. And, now that I will likely see it, it will still be hard to say no at the opportunity. While I have an active and full life, I still miss the companionship of “my person” since my husband died. It’s one thing to be OK spending time alone but it’s another thing to be lonely. Yes, I would rather be alone with myself than together with the wrong person, but the struggle is real. There just aren’t a lot of opportunities to engage with new potential companions and for that reason I think I could miss this very easily or, worse yet, choose to overlook just to get out and do something.
This! I feel exactly the same way. My partner died about 7 years ago. We had a good relationship and I miss that so much. On the other hand I’m overtly aware of bad behaviour and often just walk away from it. I don’t teach men, so I’d just choose me.
I posted a comment about my situation where I was the male in Jennie’s scenario. It’s more complex when there is history and personal knowledge of a person’s current situation. I think it’s better to err on the B2B route, but I’m glad my person of interest didn’t block and burn me because my last minute invite was authentic
I don't think it's so much the last-minute invitation, as the way it was presented without any acknowledgment of her busy schedule.
In a situation like this, I’d ask myself, “Would it be *helpful* to call them out? Would it do any good?”
In most cases, I think I would just let them know that I was unavailable, as you did.
This aligns with the “no arguing with men on the Internet” guideline, in a broader way. We want to save our energy for things that will make a difference.
Yes... Yours is a clean and elegant solution. We do not educate, not even friends. But...where does this leave our existing relationships with friends, family, etc? I agree that educating them very rarely is the answer, but yet, there needs to be some other constructive option than just that, or just dropping the relationship. There may not be any answer to this apart from on a case-to-case basis, but I'm still wondering 😔🙄
I think the key is to continually operate within our own boundaries. This will evolve where people learn how to fit in or show themselves out. As a whole the more of us learning to do this will develop into the change over of the system little piece by little piece.
My new mantra will be, “I continually operate within my own boundaries “. Thank you for this comment, I’m still working on this.
You got this!!
Thanks! I love this supportive sisterhood of Haystack Burners. 🥰
You make a very important point. If we already have a reasonably close relationship with someone, there would be a place for making a point of this. I think it takes practice to find out what works best.
When I was an undergrad 1990-1994, I felt most alive when studying gender relations and feminist literature such as Naomi’s Wolf’s “The Beauty Myth”. I had no idea that I had so internalized misogyny that I would spend the next 30 years in relationships with toxic men. Most recently, I accepted a relationship with a man who actually claimed that patriarchy was over and women should just stop blaming men. I am 52 now so I this was very recent and I am still healing. The sad thing is the first time he said that I didn’t leave him. I somehow justified it. I think it will take a lifetime to uncover all the ways that we have internalized stories about the superiority of men and the need for our own subservience. You are not alone, I am with you, and you make an enormous difference in our lives. Thank you for being a point of light, pointing me back to my great love of feminism and myself.
Your comment resonates with me so much. 51 and am reviewing how I recently accepted someone else's standards over mine. Glad we're both here and feeling reoriented!