Actually, for me it’s that whole sentence together:
“I believe A, B, C… so let’s X, Y, Z.”
It feels incredibly one-sided:
“I want, therefore we do”.
If he had asked how she felt about first dates and what she’d like to get out of it, then perhaps “Let’s explore together” would have been more acceptable.
Exactly! And 'fun and adventure' does not equate to 'casual/comfy' for me. It feels contradictory. Also, I use the word 'comfy' with people I'm close to, not strangers.
It strikes me as a thinly veiled threat and warning that he is controlling the temperature and speed of their encounter. Perhaps threat is too strong - it’s like he is racing to an imaginary control button and claiming dibs, like it’s the front seat in a car ride, and he’s competing for the prized position. However, there’s a finality in his wording like the subject is now off the table, because he’s already decided, so maybe “threat” is closer to the mark. I sense a strong presence of self imposed dominance; an early structuring of the hierarchy. And it’s so subtle as to slip under the radar of most unsuspecting women. As I dig further into my reaction to his rhetoric, I’m starting to realize how truly toxic this pattern is for the women who end up in relationships with these disciplinary/directive men.
If it rubs her the wrong way, take it as a sign that he is a B2B. I've ignored my intuition too much in my life and it's always turned out badly for me.
I agree. There's a concept I've seen a few times lately that states; "Anxiety speaks in questions, Intuition speaks in statements. " The anxious feeling and questions after a an initial thought of "This rubs me the wrong way." in this instance, or I don't like that. thought, or gut feeling is enough for me now. The statement came first. I understand questioning afterwards, that's what we are doing here, but I question way less now that I've followed for so long, and have been learning to listened to my intuition for even longer. I also see it as internalized misogyny for women to doubt our discernment. Most of us have been conditioned by having our judgement be questioned or just ignored by men and other women our whole lives.
Hahaha yeah, guilty! I didn’t like his paragraph about how duh, everyone knows horses are expensive, when I assume she had been telling him about the joys and challenges of owning a horse. 😂
He also says “fun and adventure” should be on a first date. How do they square with comfy/ casual? I go with the keeping her expectations low interpretation. I would be inclined to ask him what he means by that before going.
She says the date was already set up -- does it mesh with "adventure"? (Rock climbing, putt-putt, costco on a saturday)?
If not, is there any merit to pushing back with a comparison -- "oooh, coffee downtown, such an adventure I'll need my pith helmet!" Or "Italian food is squarely in my comfort zone -- if you want adventure should we get Ethiopian instead?"
Regardless, my inclination is to poke at it and see where it buckles
Yeah, I had similar thoughts. Even conversationally asking how he squares fun and adventure with casual and comfy. His response would be revealing. And why beat around the bush since it's a gray area?
I agree—ask him what he means by that paragraph that is confusing us all. His answer will likely make it clearer as to whether she should go on the date or not.
That's where I got stuck too.. first dates are usually awkward, so him wanting "fun and an adventure" right off the bat, then also adding "casual/comfy" into the mix is giving manic pixie dream girl.. I need an update! lol
Totally agree. But how does chilling in soft clothes also encompass fun and adventure with a stranger? It’s as if he has created an impossible contradiction as bait, to see how agreeable a woman can be. Unless of course “fun and adventure” is code for sex.
ding ding ding! We have a winner (perhaps?). The combo "fun and adventure" + "casual and comfy" struck me as code for him trying to "cuddle" his way to demanding sex on the first encounter. Probably after suggesting a "comfy" decamp to her place. Ick.
I could argue this one either way, but seriously, I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt because he knows how to bake pumpkin bread. And doesn’t seem self congratulatory about it. Then again, I’m pretty hungry right now, so my judgment may be skewed.
I actually had a guy comment on what food he was making as I got to know him on apps and I realized later as I was dating him, that he was just using that as a way to rope me in (one of many ways.) Men talking about their cooking, baking, grilling, etc. no longer impresses me. It’s just another piece in their game to try to “impress” a woman (so he can bed her.)
Also, beware of the ones who say they will make a meal for you at their home/apartment early on…it’s definitely them trying to having sex with you.
Totally! I was thinking how the "pumpkin bread" thing is coloring the doubts, how it seems contrived af, how each of his paragraphs has no depth to them, no giving any sense of who he really is, like job-interview level, like not real human level...maybe not quite AI but maybe so. And ABSOLUTELY dudes be talking about their cooking as a way to subtly color our perceptions about them as whole ppl. Like it sends the message "you don't have to worry about me, I'm one of the 'good' ones" or "I'm so different..." without actually saying that. So when they inevitably turn out to be misogynistic pieces of sh*ts, they can be like "what? I never said I was like xyz whatever you assumed. I just liked to cook! YOU'RE the one who took that to mean xyz...it's YOUR fault for not choosing better..."
Anytime a men showcases his cooking skills as if that made him special, my immediate thought is “Do you seriously think a grown man knowing how to cook is a flex?” I mean, ladies, let’s ask ourselves, do we go about the world proclaiming a special throne for knowing how to do basic grownup things like cooking and cleaning? It’s incredible to see basic average things used as “I’m the prize, where’s my prize” entitlement.
I agree. I’m like none of that is any good to me unless you are offering me pumpkin bread. The same goes for them telling you about vacations, trips, outings…am I invited? Or are you just telling me how adventurous and cool you are as a way to future fake your way into bed with me. Oooh I better sleep with him so I can have pumpkin bread and go to Hawaii with him. 🙄
If she does go on the date, he'd better bring some of that pumpkin or banana bread. Preferably without being asked. If no baked goodie to share, why bake flex at all?
People who like to bake usually like to share their creations. (Do YOU think this is good, YOU might enjoy this. Do YOU want to share this?)
Not sharing, offering to share, proactively being ready to share is a whole bunch of red and yellow flags to me. (This is good. Look at ME. Reward MY "nice guy" cooking resume)
Me too. My first inclination was that he was trying to put her at ease -- comfy and casual = no pressure. Maybe this is a "How could have have said this?" I.e. What do you think of a fun and adventurous date? I want you to be comfortable.
I hate that he said “I believe” about what dates should be and then basically instructed on that his belief dictates how things will be. It’s giving “no drama” to me. It has “should” and “let’s” in the same sentence. It doesn’t rub me the wrong wrong way so much as make my skin crawl. I would absolutely not go on a date with this guy.
Context seems pretty important to the “let’s”. Using “let’s” to agree, for example, with her input on the date would have felt more like a thoughtful response. But that’s apparently not what happened here. So soft directive seems more likely, but if that were all we had I think I’d have trouble walking away on that alone.
But then we have “casual.” In the context of dating, I read that as code for “don’t expect too much from me” and/or “this is going to go on my timeline.”
And then we get to “comfy.” This feels to me like a synonym for “cuddle,” and it gives me a whiff of covert sexualisation. I felt icky when I got to “comfy,” and I think that would have been true even if the “let’s” were cooperative and “casual” had not made an appearance.
Then beyond the words themselves, we have the situation. They already had made and agreed on plans, whatever they were (we don’t know). And now at the last minute right before the date, he’s unilaterally adding a new wrinkle. Which underscores my feeling that he is signalling to her that he’s driving this bus.
Not for nothing, I am currently leaving an abusive and controlling spouse, so my radar for that sort of behavior is exquisitely tuned (and possibly throwing off false positives) right now. YMMV
Edit to add: I’m here in BH as a still-married person not because I am dating but because this group has been so helpful to me in untangling my husband’s controlling behavior and seeing his tactics for what they are, even when he is trying to hide intent or information. So, thank you all for that.
Good for you, Paula! It takes extensive, thoughtful analysis and plain old guts to (1) recognize and (2) leave a bad situation (been there, done that). I send you tons of support!!
Yes. He's adding a new wrinkle, and he's telling herself how to present herself to him on the first date. It's totally a controlling directive and compliance test.
I think she should show up dressed to the nines. Except that's too much effort for a B2B.
Yes, yes and yes. He could have said something like "I want you to be comfortable on our first date, do you want to keep it casual?". But instead went to "comfy, casual, and maybe those baked goods are a lure"
I'm in a similar situation and I've dipped my toe in the BHDM with a view to one day wanting to date again when I'm ready but I didn't even consider fully diving into it now to help me out of my current situation with even more clarity and confidence! Thank you for sharing!
Should, let's and comfy in one sentence for a meeting with a complete stranger. That's a no from me. I also already didn't like his tone before the last bit. His use of sarcasm was super annoying. Just a no for me overall.
Same feeling, it smelled of "negging light" to me, the horse joke plus smiley.
The BHDMethod only works when brutal and ruthless, so: B2B. As a rule you do not cut strangers on the apps any slack. Because if that is your starting point it is a setup for failure because you find yourself cutting slack all the time. It's wasting your own precious time.
The horse "joke" didnt sit well with me either. Could the sarcasm have been any thicker?
On it's own I would give benefit of doubt on the last line, while staying alert and "taking notes". Combined with the horse "joke" I would test him with some push back and see how he reacts.
Maybe. But I find when I make excuses for other people, and especially when it comes to their motivation like that, I really screw myself over. Because I can not imagine the motivations of someone who is highly manipulative and into boundary testing. So making excuses for them leads to overlooking red flags in my experience.
If you feel like you need to excuse someone's behavior, don't. Just observe it and see what happens.
He is imposing his belief upon her. He is “coercing” her to agree with him, but trying to make it sound “cozy and comfy.” (I know my choice of words is weird, but I just woke up from a nap.)
Anyhow, this is the beginning of a controlling situation.
first dates should be fun and an adventure AND comfy/casual? I don't get it. does that mean wear athleisure so they can go rock climbing? dress casual to go to an amusement park? comfy casual sounds like code for netflix-and-chill, but that's not very adventurous. I'm just plain confused.
Unfortunately, the ‘adventure’ (for him) is in the climbing…but not a mountain 🤢Most of the time I see some reference to adventure on profiles or date planning texts, I read it as “You are my adventure, of the moment, in a long line of adventures.” Or similarly, and usually jointly, it translates to “I’m still in my teen years chasing adrenaline and validation from my other bros, you are just a conduit to fill my abysmally empty glass. Join me in fulfilling your purpose of quenching my adrenaline addiction and getting me the much coveted Alpha throne in my bro tribe.” Reductive? Probably. True? Most likely
This is my first time commenting in the BHDM group, so I hope it's helpful!
Firstly, my vote is on B2B.
My reasoning is this.
I'm in the middle of reading a book called, "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" by Lundy Bancroft.
In it, the author stated in all caps, "Research indicates that a woman's intuitive sense of whether or not her partner will be violent toward her is a substantially more accurate predictor of future violence than any other warning sign."
The author then tells women to trust their intuition, and trust it early, not taking a "wait and see" approach to controlling behaviours, as control is a form of violence. I feel like this lines up with what Jennie Young is teaching us with the BHDM.
Lynn, it really is hard to get through, and it's so worth it! I've been reading it and thinking, "Ooh so THAT'S what that's called! I wish this person could read this part, and I wish that person could read that part," and then I find myself wondering how to get copies to women safely.
The book is available as a free PDF online. I regularly send the link or comment with it on social media when a woman posts about a red flag situation.
Below is the link. You can easily find it by googling "why does he do that free" and click the "Internet Archive" result, then share the URL.
Yeah. I read that as "lower your expectations so my lack of effort won't be used against me," but whether I would overlook that and go would depend on how interested I am without that statement coming up.
I don’t like the vague communication. How is anyone supposed to know what it means? Not a good sign when confusion is happening this early (especially when good communication is a cornerstone of a healthy relationship). If I wanted to wear sweatpants on a first date I would say “I am excited to go for a walk in the park tomorrow, it’s going to be cold so I’ll be wearing my finest sweatpants lol” but I would not dictate what the other person should do
Yes. And this is what is so frustrating -- they have had a great run up to this point, it all looks promising, they're vibing, then bam. They say something that makes you go 'huh'.
My gut says, “the best-foot-forward behavior wanes, and the truth comes out.”
I know after a good run of conversation we are inclined to acknowledge our getting rubbed the wrong way, but give the benefit of the doubt. Collectively too many of us doubt our instincts. I’m SO guilty of this.
That’s why we need to make trusting that feeling paired with BHDM to clarify and cut them loose!
In this situation, I’d offer a snarky retort to his last statement to draw out his intentions. He stands on the edge of a knife — see how he lands. Be merciless.
"I believe first dates should be..." doesn't take into account, or even consider, how or what she believes first dates should be. Maybe she believes first dates should be more formal and NOT adventurous, but he doesn't show any interest in her perspective.
Yeah, he seems eager to get "comfy," which also rubs me the wrong way. She may be in no rush to get "comfy," or comfortable, with anyone.
How else could he have said this? "I really enjoy first dates that are casual and adventurous, and I have some cool ideas. How do you feel about how first dates should be?"
I was bothered by this too -- the "Here's what I believe" statement. I find that too many men just automatically assume I want to know what they believe, and I frequently do not.
Oh gosh, yes! It's almost like they are roosters, cock-a-doodling their opinions and thoughts, as though they're sharing something everyone would want to know. I wish they had a mute button.
Actually, for me it’s that whole sentence together:
“I believe A, B, C… so let’s X, Y, Z.”
It feels incredibly one-sided:
“I want, therefore we do”.
If he had asked how she felt about first dates and what she’d like to get out of it, then perhaps “Let’s explore together” would have been more acceptable.
But it’s all about him.
Exactly! And 'fun and adventure' does not equate to 'casual/comfy' for me. It feels contradictory. Also, I use the word 'comfy' with people I'm close to, not strangers.
Yep, just said similar. Purposely commented before seeing what others said.
Came here to say this. At first my thought was sure, go. But hes imposing his beliefs, tell her how to show up. Nope.
Yes the problem is the whole last paragraph to me. As Jennie usually says : how else could it have been said ? I would Not go and B2B.
Yes, this exactly.
It strikes me as a thinly veiled threat and warning that he is controlling the temperature and speed of their encounter. Perhaps threat is too strong - it’s like he is racing to an imaginary control button and claiming dibs, like it’s the front seat in a car ride, and he’s competing for the prized position. However, there’s a finality in his wording like the subject is now off the table, because he’s already decided, so maybe “threat” is closer to the mark. I sense a strong presence of self imposed dominance; an early structuring of the hierarchy. And it’s so subtle as to slip under the radar of most unsuspecting women. As I dig further into my reaction to his rhetoric, I’m starting to realize how truly toxic this pattern is for the women who end up in relationships with these disciplinary/directive men.
Thank you, this is very helpful and insightful. When you break it down, the two parts of the sentence put together make it notably more directive! 🤯
This might be it. Good catch!
Agree
Excellent point!
I completely agree!
If it rubs her the wrong way, take it as a sign that he is a B2B. I've ignored my intuition too much in my life and it's always turned out badly for me.
same same
I was just saying the same thing about ignoring that 'feeling' yesterday. Always listen to that little voice.
And the more we listen to it the BIGGER and LOUDER it becomes. To the point that there is no mistaking it for anxiety or anything else.
I agree. There's a concept I've seen a few times lately that states; "Anxiety speaks in questions, Intuition speaks in statements. " The anxious feeling and questions after a an initial thought of "This rubs me the wrong way." in this instance, or I don't like that. thought, or gut feeling is enough for me now. The statement came first. I understand questioning afterwards, that's what we are doing here, but I question way less now that I've followed for so long, and have been learning to listened to my intuition for even longer. I also see it as internalized misogyny for women to doubt our discernment. Most of us have been conditioned by having our judgement be questioned or just ignored by men and other women our whole lives.
I hear you, I really do. But those of us with anxiety around men jump at everything so it’s hard
Oh I get it. I have anxiety, too but learning to decenter men and stop giving them the benefit of the doubt is something we have to do.
1000% agree.
Amen
Hahaha yeah, guilty! I didn’t like his paragraph about how duh, everyone knows horses are expensive, when I assume she had been telling him about the joys and challenges of owning a horse. 😂
Baking is a life skill that women do and aren’t applauded for.
This is the answer.
He also says “fun and adventure” should be on a first date. How do they square with comfy/ casual? I go with the keeping her expectations low interpretation. I would be inclined to ask him what he means by that before going.
She says the date was already set up -- does it mesh with "adventure"? (Rock climbing, putt-putt, costco on a saturday)?
If not, is there any merit to pushing back with a comparison -- "oooh, coffee downtown, such an adventure I'll need my pith helmet!" Or "Italian food is squarely in my comfort zone -- if you want adventure should we get Ethiopian instead?"
Regardless, my inclination is to poke at it and see where it buckles
I love this: "poke at it and see where it buckles", I might overuse it for a while. :-)
You had me at ‘Costco on a Saturday’
Yeah, I just commented the same thing!
Yeah, I had similar thoughts. Even conversationally asking how he squares fun and adventure with casual and comfy. His response would be revealing. And why beat around the bush since it's a gray area?
I agree—ask him what he means by that paragraph that is confusing us all. His answer will likely make it clearer as to whether she should go on the date or not.
Yeah, agree, something like, what does casual/comfy look like for you?
I prefer saftey on a first date.
That's where I got stuck too.. first dates are usually awkward, so him wanting "fun and an adventure" right off the bat, then also adding "casual/comfy" into the mix is giving manic pixie dream girl.. I need an update! lol
They square if comfy/casual is the dress code, which is how I interpreted it
Oh! I literally just posted about this point above before reading yours. EXACTLY!
Yes.
Comfy is for when you know someone well and can chill on the couch in soft clothes. It is not a feeling that is safe with a strange man
This is what I think the feeling was i couldn't name!!
Totally agree. But how does chilling in soft clothes also encompass fun and adventure with a stranger? It’s as if he has created an impossible contradiction as bait, to see how agreeable a woman can be. Unless of course “fun and adventure” is code for sex.
ding ding ding! We have a winner (perhaps?). The combo "fun and adventure" + "casual and comfy" struck me as code for him trying to "cuddle" his way to demanding sex on the first encounter. Probably after suggesting a "comfy" decamp to her place. Ick.
I could argue this one either way, but seriously, I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt because he knows how to bake pumpkin bread. And doesn’t seem self congratulatory about it. Then again, I’m pretty hungry right now, so my judgment may be skewed.
😂 Totally get this!
Always eat before messaging back, haha!
I actually had a guy comment on what food he was making as I got to know him on apps and I realized later as I was dating him, that he was just using that as a way to rope me in (one of many ways.) Men talking about their cooking, baking, grilling, etc. no longer impresses me. It’s just another piece in their game to try to “impress” a woman (so he can bed her.)
Also, beware of the ones who say they will make a meal for you at their home/apartment early on…it’s definitely them trying to having sex with you.
Totally! I was thinking how the "pumpkin bread" thing is coloring the doubts, how it seems contrived af, how each of his paragraphs has no depth to them, no giving any sense of who he really is, like job-interview level, like not real human level...maybe not quite AI but maybe so. And ABSOLUTELY dudes be talking about their cooking as a way to subtly color our perceptions about them as whole ppl. Like it sends the message "you don't have to worry about me, I'm one of the 'good' ones" or "I'm so different..." without actually saying that. So when they inevitably turn out to be misogynistic pieces of sh*ts, they can be like "what? I never said I was like xyz whatever you assumed. I just liked to cook! YOU'RE the one who took that to mean xyz...it's YOUR fault for not choosing better..."
Anytime a men showcases his cooking skills as if that made him special, my immediate thought is “Do you seriously think a grown man knowing how to cook is a flex?” I mean, ladies, let’s ask ourselves, do we go about the world proclaiming a special throne for knowing how to do basic grownup things like cooking and cleaning? It’s incredible to see basic average things used as “I’m the prize, where’s my prize” entitlement.
OK, but I show off banana bread when I bake it, too.
I agree. I’m like none of that is any good to me unless you are offering me pumpkin bread. The same goes for them telling you about vacations, trips, outings…am I invited? Or are you just telling me how adventurous and cool you are as a way to future fake your way into bed with me. Oooh I better sleep with him so I can have pumpkin bread and go to Hawaii with him. 🙄
If she does go on the date, he'd better bring some of that pumpkin or banana bread. Preferably without being asked. If no baked goodie to share, why bake flex at all?
People who like to bake usually like to share their creations. (Do YOU think this is good, YOU might enjoy this. Do YOU want to share this?)
Not sharing, offering to share, proactively being ready to share is a whole bunch of red and yellow flags to me. (This is good. Look at ME. Reward MY "nice guy" cooking resume)
Those things and being emotionally intelligent. I always wonder what that means exactly…
Me too. My first inclination was that he was trying to put her at ease -- comfy and casual = no pressure. Maybe this is a "How could have have said this?" I.e. What do you think of a fun and adventurous date? I want you to be comfortable.
And...he bakes comfort food.
I hate that he said “I believe” about what dates should be and then basically instructed on that his belief dictates how things will be. It’s giving “no drama” to me. It has “should” and “let’s” in the same sentence. It doesn’t rub me the wrong wrong way so much as make my skin crawl. I would absolutely not go on a date with this guy.
You’re so right! there it is the “no drama”, but as you pointed out, just phrased a little bit differently, Augh
Context seems pretty important to the “let’s”. Using “let’s” to agree, for example, with her input on the date would have felt more like a thoughtful response. But that’s apparently not what happened here. So soft directive seems more likely, but if that were all we had I think I’d have trouble walking away on that alone.
But then we have “casual.” In the context of dating, I read that as code for “don’t expect too much from me” and/or “this is going to go on my timeline.”
And then we get to “comfy.” This feels to me like a synonym for “cuddle,” and it gives me a whiff of covert sexualisation. I felt icky when I got to “comfy,” and I think that would have been true even if the “let’s” were cooperative and “casual” had not made an appearance.
Then beyond the words themselves, we have the situation. They already had made and agreed on plans, whatever they were (we don’t know). And now at the last minute right before the date, he’s unilaterally adding a new wrinkle. Which underscores my feeling that he is signalling to her that he’s driving this bus.
Not for nothing, I am currently leaving an abusive and controlling spouse, so my radar for that sort of behavior is exquisitely tuned (and possibly throwing off false positives) right now. YMMV
Edit to add: I’m here in BH as a still-married person not because I am dating but because this group has been so helpful to me in untangling my husband’s controlling behavior and seeing his tactics for what they are, even when he is trying to hide intent or information. So, thank you all for that.
Good for you, Paula! It takes extensive, thoughtful analysis and plain old guts to (1) recognize and (2) leave a bad situation (been there, done that). I send you tons of support!!
🤗🍀💪❗️
Yes. He's adding a new wrinkle, and he's telling herself how to present herself to him on the first date. It's totally a controlling directive and compliance test.
I think she should show up dressed to the nines. Except that's too much effort for a B2B.
🧡
Yes, yes and yes. He could have said something like "I want you to be comfortable on our first date, do you want to keep it casual?". But instead went to "comfy, casual, and maybe those baked goods are a lure"
I'm in a similar situation and I've dipped my toe in the BHDM with a view to one day wanting to date again when I'm ready but I didn't even consider fully diving into it now to help me out of my current situation with even more clarity and confidence! Thank you for sharing!
Comfy is SO cheese and not the right word for describing the first date. I don't like it. I would be rubbed the wrong way, too.
Right? It smacks of his comfiness -- not hers!
100%
Is he the Pillsbury Doughboy?
I came here to say that. Comfy isn't a word anyway. It's a no from me.
We definitely use it here in Scotland. I agree on the cancelling front though
Thank you for this - I loathe the word comfy
Totally agree.
Comfy is how you refer to a comfortable sofa or a bed. It doesn't bode well in the context of his words.
Comfy makes me think of a nice old granny tucking in a child for bedtime. I immediately think of little red riding hood in this scenario.
Should, let's and comfy in one sentence for a meeting with a complete stranger. That's a no from me. I also already didn't like his tone before the last bit. His use of sarcasm was super annoying. Just a no for me overall.
Same feeling, it smelled of "negging light" to me, the horse joke plus smiley.
The BHDMethod only works when brutal and ruthless, so: B2B. As a rule you do not cut strangers on the apps any slack. Because if that is your starting point it is a setup for failure because you find yourself cutting slack all the time. It's wasting your own precious time.
The horse "joke" didnt sit well with me either. Could the sarcasm have been any thicker?
On it's own I would give benefit of doubt on the last line, while staying alert and "taking notes". Combined with the horse "joke" I would test him with some push back and see how he reacts.
Where’s my clapping and hell yes emoji
How else might this have been said? “I’d like for tomorrow to be fun, so I plan to be comfortable and casual. Will you join me in this?”
Asking makes all the difference.
Definitely agree this is a GREAT opportunity for "How else might this have been said?" I ran through a few scenarios myself.
To me he is saying "I'm a tad worried about the date so to ease my anxiety I am going to take charge".
Sitting with his feelings and not projecting them elsewhere, then including her in the decision making/planning would be a better way to say it.
Yes - I feel like he might be a bit nervous and is trying to take the pressure off
Maybe. But I find when I make excuses for other people, and especially when it comes to their motivation like that, I really screw myself over. Because I can not imagine the motivations of someone who is highly manipulative and into boundary testing. So making excuses for them leads to overlooking red flags in my experience.
If you feel like you need to excuse someone's behavior, don't. Just observe it and see what happens.
He is imposing his belief upon her. He is “coercing” her to agree with him, but trying to make it sound “cozy and comfy.” (I know my choice of words is weird, but I just woke up from a nap.)
Anyhow, this is the beginning of a controlling situation.
🔥🔥🔥
This
first dates should be fun and an adventure AND comfy/casual? I don't get it. does that mean wear athleisure so they can go rock climbing? dress casual to go to an amusement park? comfy casual sounds like code for netflix-and-chill, but that's not very adventurous. I'm just plain confused.
lol I thought maybe spelunking?
Unfortunately, the ‘adventure’ (for him) is in the climbing…but not a mountain 🤢Most of the time I see some reference to adventure on profiles or date planning texts, I read it as “You are my adventure, of the moment, in a long line of adventures.” Or similarly, and usually jointly, it translates to “I’m still in my teen years chasing adrenaline and validation from my other bros, you are just a conduit to fill my abysmally empty glass. Join me in fulfilling your purpose of quenching my adrenaline addiction and getting me the much coveted Alpha throne in my bro tribe.” Reductive? Probably. True? Most likely
This is my first time commenting in the BHDM group, so I hope it's helpful!
Firstly, my vote is on B2B.
My reasoning is this.
I'm in the middle of reading a book called, "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" by Lundy Bancroft.
In it, the author stated in all caps, "Research indicates that a woman's intuitive sense of whether or not her partner will be violent toward her is a substantially more accurate predictor of future violence than any other warning sign."
The author then tells women to trust their intuition, and trust it early, not taking a "wait and see" approach to controlling behaviours, as control is a form of violence. I feel like this lines up with what Jennie Young is teaching us with the BHDM.
Another point I've taken from this book is that abusive men use confusion as a form of control.
And this guy's message has left this woman, and us, feeling confused about his intent and like something is "off".
Yes! I think we have genuine instincts, from you know caveman times probably, that we have just ignored and been conditioned to ignore.
That book is hard to get through! I had to keep putting it down and settling my nervous system. Every woman should read it, especially young women!
Lynn, it really is hard to get through, and it's so worth it! I've been reading it and thinking, "Ooh so THAT'S what that's called! I wish this person could read this part, and I wish that person could read that part," and then I find myself wondering how to get copies to women safely.
The book is available as a free PDF online. I regularly send the link or comment with it on social media when a woman posts about a red flag situation.
Below is the link. You can easily find it by googling "why does he do that free" and click the "Internet Archive" result, then share the URL.
https://dn790007.ca.archive.org/0/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf
That's where I must've found it a while ago - I saw it in my downloads recently and started reading it. Such a good resource!
Lundy Bancroft is a literal lifesaver. We should all reread his books. 💜
Yes! I think we have genuine instincts, from you know caveman times probably, that we have just ignored and been conditioned to ignore.
Yeah. I read that as "lower your expectations so my lack of effort won't be used against me," but whether I would overlook that and go would depend on how interested I am without that statement coming up.
Interesting! I said something similar, but broke it down more
I don’t like the vague communication. How is anyone supposed to know what it means? Not a good sign when confusion is happening this early (especially when good communication is a cornerstone of a healthy relationship). If I wanted to wear sweatpants on a first date I would say “I am excited to go for a walk in the park tomorrow, it’s going to be cold so I’ll be wearing my finest sweatpants lol” but I would not dictate what the other person should do
Yes. And this is what is so frustrating -- they have had a great run up to this point, it all looks promising, they're vibing, then bam. They say something that makes you go 'huh'.
My gut says, “the best-foot-forward behavior wanes, and the truth comes out.”
I know after a good run of conversation we are inclined to acknowledge our getting rubbed the wrong way, but give the benefit of the doubt. Collectively too many of us doubt our instincts. I’m SO guilty of this.
That’s why we need to make trusting that feeling paired with BHDM to clarify and cut them loose!
In this situation, I’d offer a snarky retort to his last statement to draw out his intentions. He stands on the edge of a knife — see how he lands. Be merciless.
"I believe first dates should be..." doesn't take into account, or even consider, how or what she believes first dates should be. Maybe she believes first dates should be more formal and NOT adventurous, but he doesn't show any interest in her perspective.
Yeah, he seems eager to get "comfy," which also rubs me the wrong way. She may be in no rush to get "comfy," or comfortable, with anyone.
How else could he have said this? "I really enjoy first dates that are casual and adventurous, and I have some cool ideas. How do you feel about how first dates should be?"
I was bothered by this too -- the "Here's what I believe" statement. I find that too many men just automatically assume I want to know what they believe, and I frequently do not.
Oh gosh, yes! It's almost like they are roosters, cock-a-doodling their opinions and thoughts, as though they're sharing something everyone would want to know. I wish they had a mute button.
I love this analogy!