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Ann's avatar

At this time women need to stay safe, the mask is off and I am concerned for women's safety. I think remaining on the apps at this time is even more dangerous and we must protect our mental health. I deleted my one account and have no plans to return, decentering men has been ongoing for me and my life is better.

I don't think 4B is extreme, if this is what women need to stay safe that is what they should practice. Things are going to get worse for women, Trump is a symbol of misogyny and there is now more work for women to do in vetting. I do not know if I will ever return to dating, at this time I am just trying to mourn and make a safety plan, dating is the least of my worries.

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Tiffany Cloud's avatar

Years ago i had a landlord who was a big Trump fan. He used to insist I have a drink with him or he'd kick me out. It's a rural area and hard to find housing. I figured one drink after work might be ok even though he creeper me out. When I tried to leave he'd coerce me with more threats and try to grope me. He'd badmouth me to the neighbors, called my work when I stopped talking to him. Those guys are sick. Even male friends I've had and coworkers think they are entitled to sexually harass and take advantage of situations. I'd blamed myself so long, wondered what I was doing wrong to attract this attention. And that's exactly what I did wrong. Blame myself and not them. Kept letting them in my life, trying harder at boundaries etc. No, these are determined empowered misogynist that take advantage of situations. They look for situations specifically to prey on vulnerability. It's ok to be vulnerable. But being proactive about our safety means holding them accountable and knowing how common it is.

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Maggie JK's avatar

I am 6B (or more) now. No helping men, focusing instead on helping women. And not giving men attention on the internet.

I don’t hate them, I just want them to go their own way far away from me.

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Ann's avatar

I am also many B's at this point. I am in a red city in a blue state. I have cleaned up my social media and eliminated people and will continue blocking and deleting. I am just back from running errands and for the first time in my over 60 years I could not look at any man, I smiled only at women and children. My days of free labor are gone and I have already established strong boundaries of what I will entertain during the holidays, one family member has clearly said he can't say there will be no talk of politics, I will not be attending a family reunion due to this statement.

I have endured years of listening to his supporters, not sharing my own opinion (we all know they don't listen) and even with the simple request of "I am not going to discuss this" he went right ahead and told me I could hang up on him. My family is supportive and he will get a warning if he attends and then he will be asked to leave, sad but the disrespect is enough.

I have cut out other people, one who relies on my kindness to listen to her problems along with other helpful acts by me, she is no more.

All the best to you and all of the women here!

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Rebecca Moore's avatar

I was just thinking if we include B2B, it would be 6B. 😂

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Jennie Young's avatar

Hahahahaha, omg I love this! 😂

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Ali Legrand's avatar

❤️ the list of women influencers to follow! Jamila Bradly recently posted a book list on decentering males and it’s excellent!

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DCOnPiAqUu6/?igsh=anNlYWswc203N2Y=

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Cynthia's avatar

She's got some great content

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Bad Poetry's avatar

I've been 4B since before it was a thing, I think. Not intentionally, but abuse in my 20s led to a lifelong distrust of patriarchal power over me. I've been following you to help me think through these issues. As a fellow rhetorician (I focus on technologies and pedagogies), I love your approaches and think they can be helpful to overcome an aversion to dating. :-)

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Carolyn Farrell's avatar

Thank you Jennie. You have made a big difference in my life!

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andrea costello's avatar

Jennie I’m so glad I found you and the Haystack community! You’re changing my life for the better. I have spent my entire adult life waiting for “him” . That is not living . I am worth so much more than that . At 54 years old this election was the catalyst for me leaving all dating apps. Knowing how I am viewed by the men I live amongst , I cannot even imagine dating or sitting across a table from a man right now, maybe not ever.

I’m so excited to discover myself and all I want to do for ME in this world. I can clearly state that every relationship I have ever been in, including my marriage, has taken more from me than it’s given. Has made my life worse and not better. Every single one. Until someone can add to my life and complement it, I’m not interested and I’m not searching it out. I am not wasting anymore time. Thank you for your intelligence, insight, and sisterly kindness through your work. I so look forward to your book. I’m so excited for you.

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Aurora's avatar

One of the central challenges with all feminist movements has been women's integration into the lives of men, and vice versa. Even women-loving women still have male family members, friends, and colleagues, etc. who we care about. In particular, when laws and customs dictate(d) financial insecurity for women, as well as lack of reasonable divorce options, the fact that many of us love men means that a full-on embracing and centering of women's happiness could so easily be twisted and skewed into supposed "man-hating." But that was never actually true: in fact, surveys show that it's the most conservative and "traditional" women and men who hold deeply harmful beliefs about men's "biological nature to be violent" and other degrading opinions about men (and women) while feminists hold men, as individuals and as a group or class, in much higher esteem--it's just that feminists also expect men, as individuals and as a group. to BE BETTER. Because we believe that men CAN BE BETTER. But the patriarchal system has allowed men to engage in harmful behaviors for centuries, and accountability has been hard to enact (for many reasons, but Intertwined lives is one). But I really believe we may be at a tipping point, and I'm so here for it.

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Morgana King's avatar

I’d rather see women take their economic power away instead of sexual power. What about a workforce walkout, we all quit working for “the man”.

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Ann's avatar

I have already implemented this and since women are the primary purchasers this would have a big impact. 4B is not about sex at all, it is about decentering men and not participating in dating/sex/marriage or having child(ren). And as women's rights are rolled back further they should absolutely protect their sexual/reproductive health.

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Lydia's avatar

4B movement has a very strong anti trans component. I feel that we need to point it out at every turn, otherwise we cause considerable damage to them.

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Meredith Cheryl Carr's avatar

I am a trans woman. I would hope to have the support of other women. Especially here.

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Hana's avatar

I think it’s important to note that the conception that 4b is homophobic and transphobic is relatively new (in the American discussion at least). The 4B Wikipedia was recently (like two days after the election) updated to indicate it’s associated with these phobias when previously it only had a brief summary of the SK movement and its ideologies. AFAB-trans men, and trans women are welcome in the 4b America communities I’ve found on facebook. It’s important not to further divide us.

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Maggie JK's avatar

They welcome AFAB.

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Mandy's avatar

...only if they identify as women

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Shawna Scarpitti's avatar

Thank you so much Jennie for putting this article out there with these links!

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Nadene's avatar

What's funny (to me) is I voted on your poll and chose the third option, but in my own life, I'm lucky enough to be able to choose to live the first option and I do, wholeheartedly. I struggle to understand why almost all of the women I know are with their male partners/husbands/BFs, from young to my parents' age.

I don't think I'll ever choose it again for myself, but if I do, I'm burning the whole way down.

I so, so appreciate your work, for helping me to learn so much over the past six months, but also for recommending so many great voices.

As always, thank you.

Signed a very happily single, cat, dog, goat & goose lady.

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Mandy's avatar

Given the exit polls, there appear to be more than enough right-wing women whom will service the whims of men.

Meanwhile with things like Burnt Haystack, we are already practising the 4b tenets but in a more surgical way.

Meanwhile 4B itself is sex-negative, being hostile to married women, sex workers and queer people.

I would implore ya'll to embrace the parts of 4B that you are not already doing and label it something else.

Taking on 4B verbatim *will* throw those more marginalised than you under the bus.

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Hana's avatar

Married women and other allies are welcome in the 4b community. You don’t have to participate in all 4 Bs. By nature sex work can negatively impact women and benefit men, so I understand that. I have not seen hostility toward the queer community and in fact I see women being encouraged to explore their sexuality if they identify as bisexual or pan.

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Mandy's avatar

A lot of the history of the 4B movement is obsured by language barriers and cultural differences, so I can sympathise with your misunderstanding.

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Hana's avatar

I’m open to being educated if you’re willing to share some sources.

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Jodi Rose Crump's avatar

I hope everyone reads your comment!

🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️

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Lisa Johns's avatar

I love the nuance you present. I fully support anyone who wants to go full 4B (can’t blame them at all), but I think we can make our point just as well by being devastatingly self-confident and boundaried, and firmly decentering the men. American men need to understand that if they wish to maintain a nation devoted to freedom, that has to include honoring the voice and safety of all groups, and making very clear that pushing boundaries and attempting to dominate others will not be accepted.

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Kathleen's avatar

Thanks you. I’ve gone off the apps. I will be ruthless about vetting guys upfront and only allow slow access to men who improve my life. I’m more actively involved with building my network of good women friends

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Ani IG's avatar

Nicely put

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Flash Light / Suzanne Miller's avatar

I'm part of the BHDM group, and the experience has been life-changing. I've been off the dating apps for over a year and have no desire to return. (The value of the analytical framework and practical approach of BHDM is transferrable to so many contexts, not to mention the phenomenal community of women!) Pre-election I had signed up for a December speed-dating event to meet age-appropriate men IRL, but today I requested a refund. I can't fathom making pleasant conversation with a stream of strange men, any of whom could be chanting "Your body, my choice" in their heads while chatting me up. Right now, any unvetted men have too much potential to be unsafe. 4B is becoming a movement by default.

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Laura S.'s avatar

De-centering men is a wonderful strategy, although I support my brilliant and powerful South Korean 4B sisters wholeheartedly.

De-centering them, along with actively cultivating a magnificent life - sisterhood, a fulfilling career, travel, hobbies, sensual fulfillment via other routes (jade eggs, anyone? 😊) - just feels so right.

Kudos to the younger generation of women, who are already realizing that partnership and even dating shouldn't be a priority when the sea of men is so afflicted with toxicity.

Note to self to visit the other links above and continue my empowerment and healing!

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