I was suddenly widowed at 45. I am an old mom and had three under 7. So young widow old mother is a bad dating combo. I was thinking I will spend the rest of my life single because of that and because I have a few extra pounds and am not that attractive. What I have discovered is that men OVER 50 are no less immature or dangerous than their younger counterparts. They brag about being “single parents” like it is a badge of honor. I am a SOLE parent — not the same thing. And yet, major red flag, seem to know very little about their children. They talk non-stop about sex and rarely tell the truth. They have foolish ideas about what women should be. They don’t think they had anything to do with the breakdown of their marriages. I realize now that my refusal to date and my sense that I will have to live without a man is because I am demanding. I want better and will not settle. I was married to a wonderful man too, so I know what I want and how hard it is to find.
Similar experience here. I was widowed about a year and a half ago at 49 and with a 12 year old. About a year after I lost my husband I tried dating... age 50 with a 13 year old. After about 3 months of online dating I cancelled the memberships and decided to just get another cat. I'm not going to settle and I'm not willing to deal with a 50 year old man who is as immature as my 13 year old son.
And… cats at least try to cover their shit. Too often men, who have the advantage of opposable thumbs, don’t bother to flush or close the lid. Try convincing the man who regularly dribbles all over the toilet lid to spare a moment to wipe it up, or show other small considerations and they’ll puff out their chests and act like you’ve asked them to murder the neighbor kid.
I am sorry for your loss. I was a sole parent, too, (for a different reason) and I know how hard it can be. Still, it is MUCH easier without a toxic man in the mix. You're doing it right!
I hear you. I was suddenly widowed at 49 with a 7 year old daughter. “Too young a widow too old a mum.” After 3 years struggling I finally feel to get back my strength, independence and control of my and my daughter’s life. I am proud of what I had to achieve without being prepared and certainly don’t want any man to ruin it. You go girl!!! Stay true to yourself!!!
You are not demanding (which has a negative connotation) you are discerning. You have standards and boundaries and are not desperate.
I'm so sorry for your loss. I was also widowed at a young age, although with a teen son and I was ready and excited to date after a long, difficult marriage.
10 minutes on the apps cured me of that.
I'm SO PROUD OF YOU for holding fast to who you are, what you want, what you need, what you deserve and setting such a kick-ass example for your kids.
I’m so sorry for your loss. I was also suddenly widowed at 44, with then 3 & 5 year olds. I am a solo parent.
16+ years later, my kids are now 20 &21. And I’ve been more actively dating for the last 4 years. I had no desire, time, or energy to date consistently before then. I didn’t marry until I was 35, so I’m quite comfortable being single.
Now I’m in the place where I’m desiring a true companion and best friend again. And finding him is tricky, for sure! So many men in their 50’s and 60’s who are looking only for someone to fit into their life, or interested in sex above everything else, or wanting someone to take care of them. I’d like to care for someone, but I’d like to share the burden of life with someone, too.
Still hopeful that I’ll find my needle, but finding the apps less and less likely as a source.
Thanks Carol. That is me. Didn’t even get married until I was 35. Only 10 yrs. I loved being married and was just getting used to the idea. Thing is: I am really lonely and know almost no single people. I find my life has become very narrow. I feel I am on the outer edges of society because I am not in a relationship. Thankfully, unlike a lot of people in my life, I can live w/o a man. I hope I’ll find my needle. Been dating or trying to for the last 12 yrs. I have not even had a second date. Now I haven’t even tried dating for three years. I just find the whole thing so boring. Men just want one thing.
I am in exactly the same boat. Widowed at 37, suddenly and unexpectedly, and gave birth 4 weeks later to our only child. I'm 46 with an 8 year old so yes... old mom with a young child. My experience is the same meeting men. These divorced Disney Dad's think every weekend with their kids needs to be a special adventure, meanwhile, I'm alone in a Neverending mountain of laundry and other responsibilities being chastised for not being spontaneous enough. They don't fully understand the full gamut of parenting because their ex wives are doing the majority of the work so that they can be the fun dad and focus on "making memories" by letting their kids eat junk, stay up late, get special gifts, etc.
It's increasingly difficult to meet men with kids who aren't part of this dynamic.
Reading "Why Does He Do That?" will provide a glimpse into these behaviors, but the simple answer is because it works. Men either enjoy the power imbalance, the threat of harm and/or making women uncomfortable. No reason to be Nancy Drew with your dates (bad childhood, avoidant... Do vet every man you agree to go on a date with), no excuses for bad behaviors, exit immediately like your life depends on it, because it does. As I have gotten older my concern for politeness is reserved for very few people and definitely not men who are strangers.
Just want to note that evidence is emerging that Lundy Bancroft, the author of Why Does He Do That?, may be a predator of victims of domestic abuse, according to the blog Crying Out for Justice. It can be found on Facebook.
Horrifying right?! But I shouldn’t be surprised. Book helped me a lot but I do wonder nowadays if I should ever lend it to my friend in need to read given his dubious credentials.
Exactly. It was the book that awakened me to the fact I was the wife victim of a violently abusive narcissist husband. 6 years and a brutal divorce later and I am still healing (while he will always be a psychopath). If I had not found Bancroft, also author of the extremely helpful follow up book „Should I Stay or Should I Go?”, I might be dead by now.
Personally, I would never want to see a man for therapy or education about domestic abuse. I am not a domestic abuse survivor and even I have a hard time trusting men.
Great advice here :) It's not our job to avoid abusive/toxic dates before we could know they are that way, but once we recognize it--we need to have to have the strength to walk away fast. The comments here show me that women are willing to walk away when they sense it... Use that intuition, gut, and senses to stay safe. That women's intuition is something to celebrate.
On Facebook dating over 50, members can post rants, (or provocative queries as I prefer to say) and anyone can chime in. A few weeks ago a man posted a rant something along the lines of “Look, if women think men are so horrible why didn’t you raise us better? Why don’t mothers raise sons to be more understanding or whatever you want? Most of the women in this group raised kids - did you raise your son to be better men than you say we are now?”
Of course, this was meant to be provocative and it sure was. Dozens of women defended the character of the sons they raised and many men agreed with the OP or had their own point of view about what is wrong with the way women raise their sons. I read the discussion after approximately 100 posts and this is the part that struck me as horrible and sad: Not one single poster had called out the OP for assuming that only mothers raise children. I literally asked the question- what the hell was your father doing? Because we all had one and HE is the major influence on how sons treat women. Whether he was present and not doing his job or absent, he was still influencing. How exactly did HE teach you to treat women?
It still gives me chills to think about how many people debated this topic before anyone asked about the “other” parent…
I think I was in that group and finally left because I got sick of the stupid memes guys posted about 'tradwives' and crap like that. There were also too many 'pickme' women as well who rushed to flatter the guys who posted that sort of garbage.
From the families I see, the father sits around while the mother fusses excessively over the boy child. I get the feeling the mother is taking up so much space there isn't much let for the father to contribute, which he might like because it's easier, or he may wish to be more active but not know how to intervene.
I do think there needs to be improvement in how mothers raise their sons. Just as an observer.
I think it took barely a generation of women becoming financially independent and educated to wake up and realize that not only do we no longer "need" men, but we have/are collectively choosing to decenter them...that their abuse and violence will not be tolerated. As a 55 YO divorced mom, I will never allow another man in my home or my life. I'm completely done. The men my age are a total mess - they're divorced at least once and they haven't done the inner work or reflected on how their actions and bad behavior led to the destruction of their marriages. (Yes, just look to the Gottman studies that show how most divorces are the result of a man's behavior.)
Further, not only are the single men in my cohort emotionally unhealthy, they're beginning to have major health problems as well (nurse/purse scenario).
Also, to point to the comment below regarding religion - we also are beginning to see how abusive most religions are towards women, and how religion empowers men. It's a much larger topic - but the major religions are wildly misogynistic.
This!! The lack of inner work or any reflection is just so boring. I’m mid 50s and except for my recently deceased partner who was non binary and definitely more like my female friends, every man I’ve met or have known for years is just such a disappointment. No growth. I keep meeting so many amazing women but I literally have only met one man like that in over 20 years and now they are gone I feel bereft at the state of the world. My daughter already feels this in her 20s (contempt for men), I still had hope back then, but I’m glad the younger generations of women are accepting the situation earlier and creating amazing lives for themselves. All those Disney princess shows of my childhood were complete and utter propaganda to stop us all becoming lesbians 🤣🤣
It's the religion. THAT'S how men get women to agree to/ be complicit in patriarchy. I'm not saying we need to end religion (#not all religion) but we need to look at the big ones perpetuating the patriarchy and shout loud about taking away their power.
It's not just religion - it's rooting Western culture in the culture of the Greeks and Romans, both of which were slave societies in which women were property. When Constantine "converted" to Christianity, he wasn't making the Roman Empire Christian. He was making Christianity, which was disturbingly attractive to the masses, Roman. Institutional Christianity rapidly changed into just another imperial power center, embracing and extending the traditions of Rome. Anyone who talks about the importance of the "classics" and the "timeless" values of "classical societies" is shilling for patriarchy.
People can choose to practice Christianity differently, but for the most part, people don't show a lot of intentionality with their religious practice. They go to whatever church they were raised in and that's about it. The bigger issue for societies is the way that Christian institutions choose to flex their muscle.
I 100% agree. Evangelical Christianity tells men that they are the creators and kings of their dominion and that women must submit to them. This is why so many of the "incels" tend towards religion. If you read When God was a Woman by Merlin Stone, she talks about the impact of the Abrahamic religions and patricarchy bringing violence to cultures, and the differences between that and matriarchal cultures. Unfortunately, men (in general) are inherintly violent and the impact of 2000 years of patriarchy has destroyed their psyche. So back to the question - what will it take for men to wake up? An entire generation of women refusing to date/marry/have children with them? 4B?
Absolutely. If you watch true crime (in a nutshell: men killing their female partners) you will see the definite pattern of religiosity. Esp the Mormons.
I'm sure we inhabit different worlds but the only decent guys I know are Christian. Can you please tell me where the decent secular ones are? I'm very single and kind of open. lol
Your question, in and of itself, shows that you're already complicit with patriarchy. Just the implication that a man is "Christian" or "secular" is disturbing. You're suggesting that non-Christians (men or women) aren't decent. It's absurd.
I'm not offended and I am not trying to offend you. What I"m saying is that I think dividing humans up between the categories of secular and "christian" is the issue. I was raised fundamentalist Baptist so I understand this line of thinking. But I ask you, maybe to begin thinking critically about your religion and the impact it's had on women since it's origins.
Futher, my ex husband claimed to be "christian", so was my father and they were the most toxic men I've ever known. I would also say that most of the men in my church were toxic. My youth pastor left his wife and 3 kids for a 16 YO.
Men tend to use religion as a foundation for the suppression and oppression of women and use it to justify their bad behavior. (look to Afghanistan) There's an entire thread in Bluesky by BEKS and she documents religious men and pastors who abuse women and are prosecuted for it.
In my experience, men who identify as christian are part of the problem because they can fall on the rhetoric and doctine of the church to justify their behavior. (We're supposed to forgive them, always. Which perpetuates the abusive behavior.)
So, back to your question of where are the "decent secular" men - they're everywhere but unfortunately, I don't think whether or not they identify as christians makes a differnece - the question Jenny poses in her article is Why are men still so dangerous? And some of us are pointing to religion as part of the problem.
I'm sorry to hear about your experiences. A mean, nasty person is a mean, nasty person, full stop. I've run into some fundamentalist Baptists back in the day. If you're talking about the Pensacola U./Bob Jones crowd, I sympathize completely.
For the record, I'm black. I never had any delusions that their "Jesus" and the one I read about in the Bible was the same. I regularly joke that I only pray to Black Jesus. (He kept Ethiopia safe from Colonialism Jesus, so why not?)
And my dear, "everywhere" is no more helpful than, "when you stop looking you'll find someone" but thanks for answering. Probs should have married a boring Jewish boy decades ago!
Umm I’m traveling the world the last 1.5 years. Did you know that there are other religions? Are you really commenting only decent men are Christian? It sounds quite ethnocentric.
I also live in NZ that’s mostly secular. I’m a very happy atheist married to a queer feminist atheist man. He’s wonderful.
Most (all?) religion is patriarchal and Im not a fan of systems of oppression. I can happily tell you there are actually billions of non Christian men that are likely even better than decent, and I’m not even their biggest fan either as I experience them often as predators.
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you. I am a single woman. I am not in a relationship with anyone. I am also a Christian woman who has great faith. Patriarchy is not perpetuated by religion in the Bible. It gives us guidance on how to be a respectable, upstanding person, whether man or woman, and how to treat our fellow man. It does not ask us to be submissive of men. It asks us to be a person of integrity and to look for a person of the opposite gender with integrity as well. I don’t put my man first. I put God first. my spouse would put God first as well. That being said, when we have faith, and put God first, we are not submissive to each other. We are led by God and called to a higher standard to treat each other with respect.
I appreciate what you are saying about the good teachings of Christ, but the modern evangelical church has upheld patriarchy in their commitment to complementarianism.
I follow BHDM on FB and it has taught me so much (and I already thought I was a pretty strong feminist). I credit what I learned with helping me to find my potential needle (4 months in and going strong). I understand not wanting to get political because then things get complicated. However, over 50% of women voted for DT. A man who is openly misogynistic and taking away reproductive rights of women. Think about that. If women truly want change then why are they voting against themselves and putting men in power that they wouldn’t even give a 2nd date. True change will come when we don’t reject men who are ignorant, and dangerous as dating partners- but we reject them as our leaders. Until someone comes along to teach women how to champion for themselves politically I’m afraid we will always be considered inferior to men.
It devastates me that anybody voted for him, let alone such high numbers. But in the interest of accuracy, I will share that I've read in multiple places, including this new story, that it was 45% of women, not over 50%.
Ask yourself about pretty much any hetero romcom - would that guy's behavior be charming/cute/laudable if he were conventionally "ugly?" No? Then it's not ok - but women are conditioned to believe that handsome men should get away with (sometimes literal) murder because in media, if they're handsome, that's code for good intentions, and if they're ugly, that's code for bad intentions. This isn't a flawless rule, but I find it covers a LOT of bases.
1. He shows up at your workplace because you said no to him when he asked you out the first time? (Bill Murray in Ghostbusters.) And that charmed you so much you finally said yes? Tell me this screenplay was written by a man without telling me it was written by a man.
2. You dropped off a gift at her apartment after you called her to ask her out again (after dumping her on her birthday) but she hung up on you, pretended to leave, then accosted her once she thought you had left so you could gain access to her home? (Ted Mosby in HIMYM.) Charming as long as you're handsome! (Oh and of course she agreed to go out with you again.)
3. You two-timed her and destroyed her small business but she's still totally in love with you even after she finds out what you did? (You've Got Mail.) Right this way, Tom Hanks!
THIS. Sometimes I think they are worse, particularly in cases when the woman is conventionally attractive. They go out of their way to make sure the woman knows she isn't that special.
Thank you for mentioning You've Got Mail. I HATED that movie when it first came out and hate it more even now. And yet people love it. "It's sweet, it's romantic." Deranged and outrageous is what it is. He knowingly destroyed her livelihood, her mother's bookstore, because he's a selfish egotistical bastard. And she went along with it! It was all fine in the end because isn't it so romantic. Like someone said on the Facebook page, it boils my piss!
I just finished reading Eve: How the Female Body Drove 200 Million Years of Human Evolution by Cat Bohannon. She follows the evolution of female bodies through time and talks about how we got here, biologically. We are descended from species that were more matriarchal, but she talks about how violent those societies were. But essentially, our species evolved for cooperation and equal power, and the destruction of female power in a society is essentially the death knell of that society. She concludes by poignantly saying, , “every power men have ever had over women is something we gave them. We just forgot. We forgot we can stop.”
Yes. If you read "Caliban and the Witch: Women, the Body and Primitive Accumulation" it talks about how the conquerors and accumulators of capital knew the best way to get resources was to destabilize the area, and the best way to do that was to break the sustaining matriarchal connective tissue.
I think we are asking the wrong although related, question. It is not that men are still "dangerous", meaning out to do deliberate harm (although this still happens), in fact, I think that men are MORE dangerous today. I related this to the increasing role of women in society angering a certain segment of the male population. We know the answers to that. But, why are men still predators? Why do they continue to use subterfuge, false flattery, lies, and the multitude of other techniques that make women prey, to be conquered, possessed, owned....essentially to make women disappear. To make them less, smaller, to become part of a man's own persona and validate who he is. If you take it down to the basics, we no longer need predation to get food, status, money, or a mate in civilized society. Other qualities have (supposedly) evolved to surpass predation in order to "get ahead"; drive, focus, will-power, observation, critical thinking and decision making. Yet in the pursuit of relationships, all those skills or qualities are negated in favor of predator techniques. Falsehoods to lure the lamb to the slaughter. Why? That's the question this post has made me ponder.
All this talk of declining birth rates and trying to regress us back to the 1800s on the far right. They have learned nothing. Women are literally choosing to remain single and, in some cases, childless, yet conservative men vehemently refuse to do an ounce of reflection or consideration for women’s feelings. But it’s not just conservative men. I have historically dated politically liberal men who have been just as misogynistic. The only difference is they’re pro-choice. That’s only the tip of the iceberg, guys.
They want children to boost the economy, so the stock market will keep churning and brokers can make money for nothing. They need people to work jobs, pay taxes, and put their retirement in stocks.
They care not for what women want or how having children with no social safety net effects them. That's why they rolled back abortion access and are currently doing to studies to eventually ban birth control. Add that no sex-ed in school and the population is having babies whether they want to or not.
Isn't it amazing how little they know about the breakdown of their marriages and how little they understand about their children? This is mind-blowing to me. I just had a third (and final) date with a man who bragged incessantly about his involvement in his 2 teenagers lives...and who, I found out, drives a 2 seater car and lives in a 2 bedroom apartment. His bedroom is gigantic enough to have easily been split up between his 2 teenagers to give them adequate private space when they spend weekends with him; instead, they alternate use of the one extra bedroom...and one SLEEPS ON THE COUCH. And his older, driving aged, teen no longer wants to come to his apartment on the weekend and he legitimately could NOT understand why. Unreal.
One of my friends went through several abusive relationships before finding her current husband, a truly wonderful man - her needle, to be sure.
After the last abusive relationship ended, I asked her why she went straight back to dating, instead of taking some time off for herself. Her answer: "I still believe in the dream". That dream led her through 2 failed marriages, one to a man who stole from her and cheated on her (he married his girlfriend less than 3 months after the divorce), and one who had serious mental problems (she had to call the police more than once when he attacked her - and she teaches self-defense classes, as a highly competent 3rd degree black belt in TaeKwon-Do). This doesn't include several long-term dating relationships that never reached marriage.
It is the "dream" that I thought of when I read the part about "Women have also not been given healthy models of femininity. We were raised on rom-coms". My friend is a competent, intelligent, self-reliant person - but she felt incomplete without a partner, and went through literal Hell before she finally found a partner she deserved, and who deserved her. I see the BHDM as a way to bypass that Hell - and to teach men that they can't treat women badly and expect to get away with it.
I think much of her 'dream' goes back to that whole lie that 'Woman cannot be truly happy in life without a man'. You see guys use that as an insult all the time when you turn them down 'well you're too ugly to date anyway and will just end up old and alone with your cats'. When that is actually their fear. Women are discovering that we are happier being alone with their cats. And I think some studies even show that we live longer when we're not tied down to dead weight.
*Some* people are happier alone with their cats, but many are not. I don't believe that a woman can't be truly happy without a man, not at all! But I do believe I am happiest living in partnership with someone, someone who loves me and chooses to build a life together with me. I hang on to radical hope that I will find another worthy person who wants to build this kind of partnership with me. And until that happens, I make my solo life as worthwhile and enjoyable as possible.
I’ve lived in Europe for 6 years now after growing up in the USA.
When I see an American movie or tv show now I am shocked to see how men talk to and treat women. My entire life I was exposed to these toxic examples and now that it hasn’t been my life I will never allow that exposure again.
I heard a story on NPR about an group of Grandpas who organized to support each other and the community. The founder said he wanted to contribute and there were groups for grandmas, but not for men.
Instead of shooting up a school or raging about men's roles , he was INSPIRED by what women were doing and formed a group himself.
I was suddenly widowed at 45. I am an old mom and had three under 7. So young widow old mother is a bad dating combo. I was thinking I will spend the rest of my life single because of that and because I have a few extra pounds and am not that attractive. What I have discovered is that men OVER 50 are no less immature or dangerous than their younger counterparts. They brag about being “single parents” like it is a badge of honor. I am a SOLE parent — not the same thing. And yet, major red flag, seem to know very little about their children. They talk non-stop about sex and rarely tell the truth. They have foolish ideas about what women should be. They don’t think they had anything to do with the breakdown of their marriages. I realize now that my refusal to date and my sense that I will have to live without a man is because I am demanding. I want better and will not settle. I was married to a wonderful man too, so I know what I want and how hard it is to find.
Similar experience here. I was widowed about a year and a half ago at 49 and with a 12 year old. About a year after I lost my husband I tried dating... age 50 with a 13 year old. After about 3 months of online dating I cancelled the memberships and decided to just get another cat. I'm not going to settle and I'm not willing to deal with a 50 year old man who is as immature as my 13 year old son.
This is where I am just about at too. I'm 47, two kids under 10. I've tried online dating for 6 months.
About to get a cat. 😺
Cats are incredibly rewarding and affectionate, great decision!
And… cats at least try to cover their shit. Too often men, who have the advantage of opposable thumbs, don’t bother to flush or close the lid. Try convincing the man who regularly dribbles all over the toilet lid to spare a moment to wipe it up, or show other small considerations and they’ll puff out their chests and act like you’ve asked them to murder the neighbor kid.
Cats will never lie to you and are excellent judges of character.
Cats will always trust you with the hard truths.
I am sorry for your loss. I was a sole parent, too, (for a different reason) and I know how hard it can be. Still, it is MUCH easier without a toxic man in the mix. You're doing it right!
Thanks Robin :)
I hear you. I was suddenly widowed at 49 with a 7 year old daughter. “Too young a widow too old a mum.” After 3 years struggling I finally feel to get back my strength, independence and control of my and my daughter’s life. I am proud of what I had to achieve without being prepared and certainly don’t want any man to ruin it. You go girl!!! Stay true to yourself!!!
You are not demanding (which has a negative connotation) you are discerning. You have standards and boundaries and are not desperate.
I'm so sorry for your loss. I was also widowed at a young age, although with a teen son and I was ready and excited to date after a long, difficult marriage.
10 minutes on the apps cured me of that.
I'm SO PROUD OF YOU for holding fast to who you are, what you want, what you need, what you deserve and setting such a kick-ass example for your kids.
I was a young widow as well. I had my soulmate and at age 53 I lost him to cancer. I experienced the same thing in the dating arena.
I’m so sorry for your loss. I was also suddenly widowed at 44, with then 3 & 5 year olds. I am a solo parent.
16+ years later, my kids are now 20 &21. And I’ve been more actively dating for the last 4 years. I had no desire, time, or energy to date consistently before then. I didn’t marry until I was 35, so I’m quite comfortable being single.
Now I’m in the place where I’m desiring a true companion and best friend again. And finding him is tricky, for sure! So many men in their 50’s and 60’s who are looking only for someone to fit into their life, or interested in sex above everything else, or wanting someone to take care of them. I’d like to care for someone, but I’d like to share the burden of life with someone, too.
Still hopeful that I’ll find my needle, but finding the apps less and less likely as a source.
Thanks Carol. That is me. Didn’t even get married until I was 35. Only 10 yrs. I loved being married and was just getting used to the idea. Thing is: I am really lonely and know almost no single people. I find my life has become very narrow. I feel I am on the outer edges of society because I am not in a relationship. Thankfully, unlike a lot of people in my life, I can live w/o a man. I hope I’ll find my needle. Been dating or trying to for the last 12 yrs. I have not even had a second date. Now I haven’t even tried dating for three years. I just find the whole thing so boring. Men just want one thing.
I am in exactly the same boat. Widowed at 37, suddenly and unexpectedly, and gave birth 4 weeks later to our only child. I'm 46 with an 8 year old so yes... old mom with a young child. My experience is the same meeting men. These divorced Disney Dad's think every weekend with their kids needs to be a special adventure, meanwhile, I'm alone in a Neverending mountain of laundry and other responsibilities being chastised for not being spontaneous enough. They don't fully understand the full gamut of parenting because their ex wives are doing the majority of the work so that they can be the fun dad and focus on "making memories" by letting their kids eat junk, stay up late, get special gifts, etc.
It's increasingly difficult to meet men with kids who aren't part of this dynamic.
They never did the work — prob a big reason for the divorce.
Reading "Why Does He Do That?" will provide a glimpse into these behaviors, but the simple answer is because it works. Men either enjoy the power imbalance, the threat of harm and/or making women uncomfortable. No reason to be Nancy Drew with your dates (bad childhood, avoidant... Do vet every man you agree to go on a date with), no excuses for bad behaviors, exit immediately like your life depends on it, because it does. As I have gotten older my concern for politeness is reserved for very few people and definitely not men who are strangers.
We have to stop worrying about being polite. If he’s a jerk, get up and leave.
That book should be a must-read for all girls.
Just want to note that evidence is emerging that Lundy Bancroft, the author of Why Does He Do That?, may be a predator of victims of domestic abuse, according to the blog Crying Out for Justice. It can be found on Facebook.
Here is the blog post in which evidence is presented that Lundy Bancroft preys upon survivors of domestic abuse. https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/2025/01/30/lundy-bancroft-is-a-predator/
Barbara who runs that site is not a safe person.
Horrifying right?! But I shouldn’t be surprised. Book helped me a lot but I do wonder nowadays if I should ever lend it to my friend in need to read given his dubious credentials.
The book is not the man.
The author may be a misogynistic ahole, but I don’t worship people and am no longer surprised by men’s assholery behaviors.
The book will open your eyes.
Exactly. It was the book that awakened me to the fact I was the wife victim of a violently abusive narcissist husband. 6 years and a brutal divorce later and I am still healing (while he will always be a psychopath). If I had not found Bancroft, also author of the extremely helpful follow up book „Should I Stay or Should I Go?”, I might be dead by now.
Question it. Question everything , twice if you saw it on social media. Skepticism is our new best friend.
That book helped me a lot and it’s exactly what Jenny said “because they want to be. Because they’re allowed to be”
Personally, I would never want to see a man for therapy or education about domestic abuse. I am not a domestic abuse survivor and even I have a hard time trusting men.
Great advice here :) It's not our job to avoid abusive/toxic dates before we could know they are that way, but once we recognize it--we need to have to have the strength to walk away fast. The comments here show me that women are willing to walk away when they sense it... Use that intuition, gut, and senses to stay safe. That women's intuition is something to celebrate.
*looking up that book
It’s not only ‘young’ women who are decentering men. I’m 66 and I’m fabulous.
And I’m building a beautiful life surrounded by other fabulous female friends. Men are too much work.
On Facebook dating over 50, members can post rants, (or provocative queries as I prefer to say) and anyone can chime in. A few weeks ago a man posted a rant something along the lines of “Look, if women think men are so horrible why didn’t you raise us better? Why don’t mothers raise sons to be more understanding or whatever you want? Most of the women in this group raised kids - did you raise your son to be better men than you say we are now?”
Of course, this was meant to be provocative and it sure was. Dozens of women defended the character of the sons they raised and many men agreed with the OP or had their own point of view about what is wrong with the way women raise their sons. I read the discussion after approximately 100 posts and this is the part that struck me as horrible and sad: Not one single poster had called out the OP for assuming that only mothers raise children. I literally asked the question- what the hell was your father doing? Because we all had one and HE is the major influence on how sons treat women. Whether he was present and not doing his job or absent, he was still influencing. How exactly did HE teach you to treat women?
It still gives me chills to think about how many people debated this topic before anyone asked about the “other” parent…
I think I was in that group and finally left because I got sick of the stupid memes guys posted about 'tradwives' and crap like that. There were also too many 'pickme' women as well who rushed to flatter the guys who posted that sort of garbage.
From the families I see, the father sits around while the mother fusses excessively over the boy child. I get the feeling the mother is taking up so much space there isn't much let for the father to contribute, which he might like because it's easier, or he may wish to be more active but not know how to intervene.
I do think there needs to be improvement in how mothers raise their sons. Just as an observer.
When I saw the phrase "decenter men," I thought, "Yes! That's what I want! Men who are more decent!"
But placing them outside the center of my life is good too.
Thank you for that laugh!!! 😂
(It's salty in here!)
That is my favorite thing in this thread!
I think it took barely a generation of women becoming financially independent and educated to wake up and realize that not only do we no longer "need" men, but we have/are collectively choosing to decenter them...that their abuse and violence will not be tolerated. As a 55 YO divorced mom, I will never allow another man in my home or my life. I'm completely done. The men my age are a total mess - they're divorced at least once and they haven't done the inner work or reflected on how their actions and bad behavior led to the destruction of their marriages. (Yes, just look to the Gottman studies that show how most divorces are the result of a man's behavior.)
Further, not only are the single men in my cohort emotionally unhealthy, they're beginning to have major health problems as well (nurse/purse scenario).
Also, to point to the comment below regarding religion - we also are beginning to see how abusive most religions are towards women, and how religion empowers men. It's a much larger topic - but the major religions are wildly misogynistic.
This!! The lack of inner work or any reflection is just so boring. I’m mid 50s and except for my recently deceased partner who was non binary and definitely more like my female friends, every man I’ve met or have known for years is just such a disappointment. No growth. I keep meeting so many amazing women but I literally have only met one man like that in over 20 years and now they are gone I feel bereft at the state of the world. My daughter already feels this in her 20s (contempt for men), I still had hope back then, but I’m glad the younger generations of women are accepting the situation earlier and creating amazing lives for themselves. All those Disney princess shows of my childhood were complete and utter propaganda to stop us all becoming lesbians 🤣🤣
Book, THIS IS HOW YOUR MARRIAGE ENDS lays it out pretty clearly. The men who need to read it the most will hate it and badmouth it.
It's the religion. THAT'S how men get women to agree to/ be complicit in patriarchy. I'm not saying we need to end religion (#not all religion) but we need to look at the big ones perpetuating the patriarchy and shout loud about taking away their power.
It's not just religion - it's rooting Western culture in the culture of the Greeks and Romans, both of which were slave societies in which women were property. When Constantine "converted" to Christianity, he wasn't making the Roman Empire Christian. He was making Christianity, which was disturbingly attractive to the masses, Roman. Institutional Christianity rapidly changed into just another imperial power center, embracing and extending the traditions of Rome. Anyone who talks about the importance of the "classics" and the "timeless" values of "classical societies" is shilling for patriarchy.
People can choose to practice Christianity differently, but for the most part, people don't show a lot of intentionality with their religious practice. They go to whatever church they were raised in and that's about it. The bigger issue for societies is the way that Christian institutions choose to flex their muscle.
I 100% agree. Evangelical Christianity tells men that they are the creators and kings of their dominion and that women must submit to them. This is why so many of the "incels" tend towards religion. If you read When God was a Woman by Merlin Stone, she talks about the impact of the Abrahamic religions and patricarchy bringing violence to cultures, and the differences between that and matriarchal cultures. Unfortunately, men (in general) are inherintly violent and the impact of 2000 years of patriarchy has destroyed their psyche. So back to the question - what will it take for men to wake up? An entire generation of women refusing to date/marry/have children with them? 4B?
Absolutely. If you watch true crime (in a nutshell: men killing their female partners) you will see the definite pattern of religiosity. Esp the Mormons.
I'm sure we inhabit different worlds but the only decent guys I know are Christian. Can you please tell me where the decent secular ones are? I'm very single and kind of open. lol
Your question, in and of itself, shows that you're already complicit with patriarchy. Just the implication that a man is "Christian" or "secular" is disturbing. You're suggesting that non-Christians (men or women) aren't decent. It's absurd.
No offense, but please reread what I wrote slowly.
And if you don't have anything helpful to say, it's fine to ignore the request.
I'm not offended and I am not trying to offend you. What I"m saying is that I think dividing humans up between the categories of secular and "christian" is the issue. I was raised fundamentalist Baptist so I understand this line of thinking. But I ask you, maybe to begin thinking critically about your religion and the impact it's had on women since it's origins.
Futher, my ex husband claimed to be "christian", so was my father and they were the most toxic men I've ever known. I would also say that most of the men in my church were toxic. My youth pastor left his wife and 3 kids for a 16 YO.
Men tend to use religion as a foundation for the suppression and oppression of women and use it to justify their bad behavior. (look to Afghanistan) There's an entire thread in Bluesky by BEKS and she documents religious men and pastors who abuse women and are prosecuted for it.
In my experience, men who identify as christian are part of the problem because they can fall on the rhetoric and doctine of the church to justify their behavior. (We're supposed to forgive them, always. Which perpetuates the abusive behavior.)
So, back to your question of where are the "decent secular" men - they're everywhere but unfortunately, I don't think whether or not they identify as christians makes a differnece - the question Jenny poses in her article is Why are men still so dangerous? And some of us are pointing to religion as part of the problem.
I'm sorry to hear about your experiences. A mean, nasty person is a mean, nasty person, full stop. I've run into some fundamentalist Baptists back in the day. If you're talking about the Pensacola U./Bob Jones crowd, I sympathize completely.
For the record, I'm black. I never had any delusions that their "Jesus" and the one I read about in the Bible was the same. I regularly joke that I only pray to Black Jesus. (He kept Ethiopia safe from Colonialism Jesus, so why not?)
And my dear, "everywhere" is no more helpful than, "when you stop looking you'll find someone" but thanks for answering. Probs should have married a boring Jewish boy decades ago!
Umm I’m traveling the world the last 1.5 years. Did you know that there are other religions? Are you really commenting only decent men are Christian? It sounds quite ethnocentric.
I also live in NZ that’s mostly secular. I’m a very happy atheist married to a queer feminist atheist man. He’s wonderful.
Most (all?) religion is patriarchal and Im not a fan of systems of oppression. I can happily tell you there are actually billions of non Christian men that are likely even better than decent, and I’m not even their biggest fan either as I experience them often as predators.
Nope. Not commenting that. Read it again slowly. If you have time, read through the exchange just above this one as well for more context.
Never been to New Zealand. The Maori boys seem lovely tho. Thanks for letting us keep Taika Waititi. 😏
Wow, it’s like no one is reading past the first sentence! I understand exactly what you meant.
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you. I am a single woman. I am not in a relationship with anyone. I am also a Christian woman who has great faith. Patriarchy is not perpetuated by religion in the Bible. It gives us guidance on how to be a respectable, upstanding person, whether man or woman, and how to treat our fellow man. It does not ask us to be submissive of men. It asks us to be a person of integrity and to look for a person of the opposite gender with integrity as well. I don’t put my man first. I put God first. my spouse would put God first as well. That being said, when we have faith, and put God first, we are not submissive to each other. We are led by God and called to a higher standard to treat each other with respect.
The origins of Christianity are rooted in patriarchy. The Christian creation myth itself is misogynistic.
I appreciate what you are saying about the good teachings of Christ, but the modern evangelical church has upheld patriarchy in their commitment to complementarianism.
Big organized religions being different from actual faith is similar to big organized charities being different from actual charity.
I love this analogy.
The Catholics have done a fine job as well.
The Christian God is male with the characteristics of male dominance from the era(s) when the Bible was written.
I follow BHDM on FB and it has taught me so much (and I already thought I was a pretty strong feminist). I credit what I learned with helping me to find my potential needle (4 months in and going strong). I understand not wanting to get political because then things get complicated. However, over 50% of women voted for DT. A man who is openly misogynistic and taking away reproductive rights of women. Think about that. If women truly want change then why are they voting against themselves and putting men in power that they wouldn’t even give a 2nd date. True change will come when we don’t reject men who are ignorant, and dangerous as dating partners- but we reject them as our leaders. Until someone comes along to teach women how to champion for themselves politically I’m afraid we will always be considered inferior to men.
It devastates me that anybody voted for him, let alone such high numbers. But in the interest of accuracy, I will share that I've read in multiple places, including this new story, that it was 45% of women, not over 50%.
https://abcnews.go.com/538/gender-gap-tells-us-trumps-win/story?id=115996226
Thank you. Either way - it’s a shocking amount of women. This article says 55% of white women- which is what I am. Sad.
If you have a trillion dollars (or close to it) you can buy the vote or tamper with the vote count in the time it takes to say big balls.
Ask yourself about pretty much any hetero romcom - would that guy's behavior be charming/cute/laudable if he were conventionally "ugly?" No? Then it's not ok - but women are conditioned to believe that handsome men should get away with (sometimes literal) murder because in media, if they're handsome, that's code for good intentions, and if they're ugly, that's code for bad intentions. This isn't a flawless rule, but I find it covers a LOT of bases.
1. He shows up at your workplace because you said no to him when he asked you out the first time? (Bill Murray in Ghostbusters.) And that charmed you so much you finally said yes? Tell me this screenplay was written by a man without telling me it was written by a man.
2. You dropped off a gift at her apartment after you called her to ask her out again (after dumping her on her birthday) but she hung up on you, pretended to leave, then accosted her once she thought you had left so you could gain access to her home? (Ted Mosby in HIMYM.) Charming as long as you're handsome! (Oh and of course she agreed to go out with you again.)
3. You two-timed her and destroyed her small business but she's still totally in love with you even after she finds out what you did? (You've Got Mail.) Right this way, Tom Hanks!
And, dating has taught me that ugly guys can be toxic too. I have had the thought "You're not handsome enough to be so awful." ;)
THIS. Sometimes I think they are worse, particularly in cases when the woman is conventionally attractive. They go out of their way to make sure the woman knows she isn't that special.
Thank you for mentioning You've Got Mail. I HATED that movie when it first came out and hate it more even now. And yet people love it. "It's sweet, it's romantic." Deranged and outrageous is what it is. He knowingly destroyed her livelihood, her mother's bookstore, because he's a selfish egotistical bastard. And she went along with it! It was all fine in the end because isn't it so romantic. Like someone said on the Facebook page, it boils my piss!
Agree re You’ve Got Mail. I even hate Gone With the Wind and It’s a Wonderful Life.
I just finished reading Eve: How the Female Body Drove 200 Million Years of Human Evolution by Cat Bohannon. She follows the evolution of female bodies through time and talks about how we got here, biologically. We are descended from species that were more matriarchal, but she talks about how violent those societies were. But essentially, our species evolved for cooperation and equal power, and the destruction of female power in a society is essentially the death knell of that society. She concludes by poignantly saying, , “every power men have ever had over women is something we gave them. We just forgot. We forgot we can stop.”
Yes. If you read "Caliban and the Witch: Women, the Body and Primitive Accumulation" it talks about how the conquerors and accumulators of capital knew the best way to get resources was to destabilize the area, and the best way to do that was to break the sustaining matriarchal connective tissue.
Excellent book
I think we are asking the wrong although related, question. It is not that men are still "dangerous", meaning out to do deliberate harm (although this still happens), in fact, I think that men are MORE dangerous today. I related this to the increasing role of women in society angering a certain segment of the male population. We know the answers to that. But, why are men still predators? Why do they continue to use subterfuge, false flattery, lies, and the multitude of other techniques that make women prey, to be conquered, possessed, owned....essentially to make women disappear. To make them less, smaller, to become part of a man's own persona and validate who he is. If you take it down to the basics, we no longer need predation to get food, status, money, or a mate in civilized society. Other qualities have (supposedly) evolved to surpass predation in order to "get ahead"; drive, focus, will-power, observation, critical thinking and decision making. Yet in the pursuit of relationships, all those skills or qualities are negated in favor of predator techniques. Falsehoods to lure the lamb to the slaughter. Why? That's the question this post has made me ponder.
All this talk of declining birth rates and trying to regress us back to the 1800s on the far right. They have learned nothing. Women are literally choosing to remain single and, in some cases, childless, yet conservative men vehemently refuse to do an ounce of reflection or consideration for women’s feelings. But it’s not just conservative men. I have historically dated politically liberal men who have been just as misogynistic. The only difference is they’re pro-choice. That’s only the tip of the iceberg, guys.
They want children to boost the economy, so the stock market will keep churning and brokers can make money for nothing. They need people to work jobs, pay taxes, and put their retirement in stocks.
They care not for what women want or how having children with no social safety net effects them. That's why they rolled back abortion access and are currently doing to studies to eventually ban birth control. Add that no sex-ed in school and the population is having babies whether they want to or not.
It's always about the money.
Isn't it amazing how little they know about the breakdown of their marriages and how little they understand about their children? This is mind-blowing to me. I just had a third (and final) date with a man who bragged incessantly about his involvement in his 2 teenagers lives...and who, I found out, drives a 2 seater car and lives in a 2 bedroom apartment. His bedroom is gigantic enough to have easily been split up between his 2 teenagers to give them adequate private space when they spend weekends with him; instead, they alternate use of the one extra bedroom...and one SLEEPS ON THE COUCH. And his older, driving aged, teen no longer wants to come to his apartment on the weekend and he legitimately could NOT understand why. Unreal.
One of my friends went through several abusive relationships before finding her current husband, a truly wonderful man - her needle, to be sure.
After the last abusive relationship ended, I asked her why she went straight back to dating, instead of taking some time off for herself. Her answer: "I still believe in the dream". That dream led her through 2 failed marriages, one to a man who stole from her and cheated on her (he married his girlfriend less than 3 months after the divorce), and one who had serious mental problems (she had to call the police more than once when he attacked her - and she teaches self-defense classes, as a highly competent 3rd degree black belt in TaeKwon-Do). This doesn't include several long-term dating relationships that never reached marriage.
It is the "dream" that I thought of when I read the part about "Women have also not been given healthy models of femininity. We were raised on rom-coms". My friend is a competent, intelligent, self-reliant person - but she felt incomplete without a partner, and went through literal Hell before she finally found a partner she deserved, and who deserved her. I see the BHDM as a way to bypass that Hell - and to teach men that they can't treat women badly and expect to get away with it.
I think much of her 'dream' goes back to that whole lie that 'Woman cannot be truly happy in life without a man'. You see guys use that as an insult all the time when you turn them down 'well you're too ugly to date anyway and will just end up old and alone with your cats'. When that is actually their fear. Women are discovering that we are happier being alone with their cats. And I think some studies even show that we live longer when we're not tied down to dead weight.
*Some* people are happier alone with their cats, but many are not. I don't believe that a woman can't be truly happy without a man, not at all! But I do believe I am happiest living in partnership with someone, someone who loves me and chooses to build a life together with me. I hang on to radical hope that I will find another worthy person who wants to build this kind of partnership with me. And until that happens, I make my solo life as worthwhile and enjoyable as possible.
Partnership is the key. Doesn’t matter if it’s cat, dog, woman or even … man. Having someone there for you. Good luck☺️
I’ve lived in Europe for 6 years now after growing up in the USA.
When I see an American movie or tv show now I am shocked to see how men talk to and treat women. My entire life I was exposed to these toxic examples and now that it hasn’t been my life I will never allow that exposure again.
I heard a story on NPR about an group of Grandpas who organized to support each other and the community. The founder said he wanted to contribute and there were groups for grandmas, but not for men.
Instead of shooting up a school or raging about men's roles , he was INSPIRED by what women were doing and formed a group himself.
We need so much more of this!
https://www.npr.org/2025/03/12/nx-s1-5323125/grandpas-united-creates-volunteer-opportunities-for-the-benefit-of-young-and-old