I worked in DV for two years and documentation is king. You must write the ‘go away’ text. Stalking is illegal and texts DO hold up in court. Listen to your gut. It is never wrong.
Narcissist and desperate to "win". It's a game to him. I would be willing to bet if you had agreed to try again he would have dropped you like a hot potato. He knows you are a nice person who doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings and he was/is counting on that. Block block block block.
I could feel my heart rate rising and anxiety coming on with each message he wrote. Glad she found out early, but yes, blocking has helped me find a lot more peace.
Fantastic advice. I am always deeply disturbed by how quickly men request/feel entitled to sex. They feel like if they take a woman to dinner, she owes him sex. Things have really gone off the rails. I blame porn, hookup culture, and the internet. I'm sure there are more culprits than those. It's really upsetting.
My policy is I go into a 1st date with the assumption that he will pay. Some women have told me they don't want to do that because then they expect some action.
My response? He can expect whatever he wants. He's not gettin' any.
And, how pathetic is it to have to rely on money to get yourself laid. To have sex with someone who is doing it out of some sense of obligation, not attraction and enthusiasm.
If only men knew how easy it was to inspire women to want to have sex with them. Be nice. Be normal. Be funny. Be clean. Be interesting. Be interested.
The bar is not super high, and doesn't cost a dime.
I always pay for myself until I'm comfortably in a long term committed relationship because I feel like letting a guy pay changes the dynamics of the relationship. I'm looking for something egalitarian where I won't be expected to fill the traditional female role and therefore expecting him to play the traditional male role of provider and pay for me feels wrong. To clarify, I don't want a doormat, I want an equal partner that would not view doing half of the cleaning or childcare as "helping out" with a woman's role and therefore I don't want to mandate that they play the man's role from date 1.
Totally legit strat! Vive le Difference! I lean towards some tranditonal m/f dynamics.. I've been the breadwinner for my entire life and... I'm exhausted. I'm happy for a man to pay for the first few dates and open pickle jars. I like feeling taken care of.
After settling into a relationship, I'm happy to pay. And just as happy for him to. For things like a major trip that wasn't a gift, I'd expect to pay half.
The difference for me is that, unlike a SAHM, I'm not dependent on him to pay.
Is it a nod to the Patriarchy? Yep. One I can live with.
I agree on the m/f dynamics....feminism got hijacked by men in order to have us, not only now join the workforce (and be paid less for the same job if we even got it), but still do all the other home jobs. Women are exhausted and sick now, especially by menopause in hormone depletion and adrenal exhaustion, where we are then discarded for our services rendered out to the pasture. Whereas before, yes there were issues of oppression, but women's femininity was supported and they were Queen of the Castle. So I'm not sure which version women are more slaves... under the guise of "equality" by having women work like men, get paid less and still do all the at home jobs (we have different hormones and bodies and our gifts run far beyond the physical nature of strength and endurance where men are made for that) or one where women didn't have the same rights as men, but not expected to be a man in order to have equality. I think something new is needed.
Masculinity doesn't have to be patriarchy nor expressing the feminine be oppression. I, for one, am into bringing back the essence of F/M roles that truly feed and support each others' traits to enhance the strengths and expressions of them, not suppression so that we become or play a man/masculine role. It's a yin/yang. I don't want to be a man and so I don't want to try and fill that role in order to convince myself I am equal. We aren't equal. the masculine supports the feminine to express and vice versa in a complementary way.
I'm just not sure how that can come back, or rather be created in a new way - one that isn't oppressive, but allows traits of both to flourish. I think for sure, setting boundaries and standards and not trying to "teach" men how to treat us is a start...by not addressing bad behavior but just blocking instead...will that lead us there?
Gender roles are way confused, almost being instigated to be so under another guise of tolerance and we are all frustrated it seems...and it's even made political! Not to mention, women are playing into the pick-me culture with degrading sex photos all over the internet to "win" love and approval by the MAN ...and they have their pick of easy porn access anywhere now.. ruins and degrades real sex and relationships by altering dopamine chemistry and reality of REAL life with a REAL person a complex and deep experience vs a superficial dopamine hit.
I've not paid for a date in 10 years. Even if I went on multiple with someone. I suggest not paying at all ever. I've been told I used them for money or food exactly ZERO times.
I feel like men mostly value money and sex. Money = power and if they are into you, they should be willing to share said power.
The most you should do is pay for a coffee. In my experience, the men want to pay. Even if I offer.
I can totally relate to HER managing of the situation. We are taught early on in our female lives to set soft boundries, keep the peace, don't be a bitch, don't be aggressive and we feel guilty when we set boundries as she clearly did. We apologize, excuse and offer compromise. I could feel my nervous system activating as I read the text exchange firstly becauseit was terrifying.. and second because I have been there. Holding the OP in the light and sending her B2B karma!
Yes me too, even after divorcing a narcissistic emotionally abusive ex and thought I understood his behaviour reasonably well, this book was an eye opener. Yes,
This book is a game changer. I thought that I knew enough about spotting the signs of NPD. It doesn’t matter. You just need to look out for the signs of abusive men. It also applies to organizations and friendships too. This book is a must read!
This is the book that woke me up to exactly what I had been dealing with in my last marriage to a violently abusive narcissist. Predictably he continued his emotional, verbal and at the end of the 10-year marriage, legal-system abuse even after having read the book. As I educated myself about Narcissistic Personality Disorder I also read Lundy’s *Should I Stay or should I Go? * follow-up book which helped me finally break my trauma bond enough to exit. However, in neither book does Lundy bring up NPD. He never alerts the reader to the probability she is living with a narc who will never change because his brain was damaged by early trauma and lacks neural activity in the brain region for empathy. New science, actual brain scans. This must be understood and fortunately the information is slowly going mainstream. Watch Drs Sam Vankin and Ramini on YouTube for full explanations.
There's a Venn-diagram of common patriarchal abuse, usually by men on women, in romantic and parental relationships, and abuse coming from the more coercive types of Cluster B's on anyone close to them.
There's no actual empathy for her feelings, just a focus on "why aren't you behaving how i want you to" and "explain your reasons so i can convince you not to trust yourself and to do what i want you to do."
That caught my eye too. In the bottom left corner of the 1st page there is something along the lines of 'I am not asking you to change, but could you just go with the sexual chemistry I am feeling?' Directly after her stating that isn't where she is at nor wants to be at this stage of their dating. 🚩
1) Thank you for this. The actual screens shots are so helpful.
2) Regarding "Woman of the Hour"
There's this part that was so well done. She's at a bar with her weird/creepy/pushy older neighbor who she thinks of as a friend and he makes a pass at her and she doesn't respond in kind and he gets butt hurt and she sleeps with him because it's easier that dealing with the fallout if she doesn't.
The fallout can be anything from assault to awkwardness in the laundry room and she's just tired. Tired of trying to make it as an actress. Tired of LA. And she's been conditioned to appease and deflect conflict and... it's just easier.
The scenes are underplayed. No dramatic music or deep closeups in the mirror or confessions to girlfriends. It's banal. It's normal. It's happened before, it'll happen again.
And, it sets the stage for later in the movie, where she's at another bar with another creep. A much creepier creep. A stranger who she doesn't know as a "friend."
This time, she listens to her intuition. And in doing so, literally saves her own life.
I do wish that this knowledge had been available to me 25 years ago.
I was dating I guy I met through a dating service (back when you chose by going through a book of options) and decided that he wasn't what I was looking for. Every time I said no, he would wait a few days or weeks and then offer another date, upping the intricacy of the date and with some type of response to any reason I had given him - for example, when I told him I couldn't go on a long, involved date because I needed to care for my dog, he hired a dog sitter. Things escalated repeatedly; the last escalation, which occurred when the man unexpectedly showed up at my house, occurred when a male friend of mine was with me (thankfully); it ended with a restraining order that had no end date, because the man had demonstrated, repeatedly, that he would keep coming back, and I was afraid that if there was an end date (his lawyer proposed 1 year, then 5) he'd come back when it was over. The judge agreed with my refusal, and the order is still in place.
I haven't seen him in over 25 years, and I've moved since then - but just writing about it gives me the shivers.
I fell into a situationship with someone who disrespected me on day 1. Because I was trained to give benefit of the doubt, I let it continue a few weeks. When I stopped responding, he wrote to me in ‘blood’ on a ‘hospital’ paper napkin. The manipulation was insane.
The warning in writing to never contact me again does work. My ex was stalking me for months until a wrote a very strongly worded email asking him to never contact me or approach me again and that it was harassement. Then it all stopped. They get it. I made no threat in my email and it was civil, but he is smart enough to know what a written warning means.
Lord, this gave me chills, having experienced this kind of thing and having had it escalate to the point of violence and even, in one point, having to move, change my phone number and work, in order to stay safe. It’s only a tiny thing, but in the very beginning, when he recounts the things he’s done: “I have been quite the gentleman, have put in time and effort ….” BLAH! That’s just BEING A HUMAN interested in a relationship, and he wants extra credit. But it feels like an early warning to what ultimately turned into his insistence that he should have what he wants, no matter what. Entitlement. No boundaries. Rapist mindset.
P.S. Anna Kendrick is also a survivor of an abusive relationship in which her ex psychologically manipulated her and gaslighted her to the point where she thought she was the one causing the problems.
Reading these exchanges makes me anxious and I am not even in danger of him contacting me. Sometimes a man can make a comment that makes us uncomfortable, but he has other positive green flags. That is what communication is for. A good man would recognize that and pull back. It seems to me that the most important thing a man can do is to make the woman feel comfortable and safe. Ultimately he responded based on his personality, so he is always going to push a woman regardless of her feelings. RUN.
This man is a boundary violator and a sex pest. He does not care at all about the woman just his fragile brittle ego and his needs (these are really wants but we all know many men claim these are needs-ugh). No is no, a subtle no or a loud no. Always block these men because we know pests just find a different way to enter our lives! I blocked one of these pests 3 months ago, he took my kindness for weakness!
Boy, did my mama bear start to come out reading his comments. I found myself almost yelling at my computer 'Dude, she said NO!' Why are some men so thick in the brain??
THIS! People who won’t take the hint even if figuratively bludgeoned over the head with it.
Sending a clear, concise email that says, “Don’t contact me again in any way,” removes all doubt as to your intent - maybe not to his entitled butt - to any authority figure.
I think it's important to specifically include the words "in writing" (as in "I am asking you, in writing, to never contact me again.”) as it's the words "IN WRITING" that indicate the person is now keeping a record for potential legal action.
I worked in DV for two years and documentation is king. You must write the ‘go away’ text. Stalking is illegal and texts DO hold up in court. Listen to your gut. It is never wrong.
Thank you for confirming this!
Good grief! That "shore" was a lot to deal with. We have to learn to block. There is no clearer message than blocking.
Narcissist and desperate to "win". It's a game to him. I would be willing to bet if you had agreed to try again he would have dropped you like a hot potato. He knows you are a nice person who doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings and he was/is counting on that. Block block block block.
Yeah the "shore" was really annoying in addition to all the floating "X"s. It almost made me gloss over the "your/you're" and other stuff
you shore is pretty! 🤮
I could feel my heart rate rising and anxiety coming on with each message he wrote. Glad she found out early, but yes, blocking has helped me find a lot more peace.
Fantastic advice. I am always deeply disturbed by how quickly men request/feel entitled to sex. They feel like if they take a woman to dinner, she owes him sex. Things have really gone off the rails. I blame porn, hookup culture, and the internet. I'm sure there are more culprits than those. It's really upsetting.
My policy is I go into a 1st date with the assumption that he will pay. Some women have told me they don't want to do that because then they expect some action.
My response? He can expect whatever he wants. He's not gettin' any.
And, how pathetic is it to have to rely on money to get yourself laid. To have sex with someone who is doing it out of some sense of obligation, not attraction and enthusiasm.
If only men knew how easy it was to inspire women to want to have sex with them. Be nice. Be normal. Be funny. Be clean. Be interesting. Be interested.
The bar is not super high, and doesn't cost a dime.
I always pay for myself until I'm comfortably in a long term committed relationship because I feel like letting a guy pay changes the dynamics of the relationship. I'm looking for something egalitarian where I won't be expected to fill the traditional female role and therefore expecting him to play the traditional male role of provider and pay for me feels wrong. To clarify, I don't want a doormat, I want an equal partner that would not view doing half of the cleaning or childcare as "helping out" with a woman's role and therefore I don't want to mandate that they play the man's role from date 1.
Totally legit strat! Vive le Difference! I lean towards some tranditonal m/f dynamics.. I've been the breadwinner for my entire life and... I'm exhausted. I'm happy for a man to pay for the first few dates and open pickle jars. I like feeling taken care of.
After settling into a relationship, I'm happy to pay. And just as happy for him to. For things like a major trip that wasn't a gift, I'd expect to pay half.
The difference for me is that, unlike a SAHM, I'm not dependent on him to pay.
Is it a nod to the Patriarchy? Yep. One I can live with.
I agree on the m/f dynamics....feminism got hijacked by men in order to have us, not only now join the workforce (and be paid less for the same job if we even got it), but still do all the other home jobs. Women are exhausted and sick now, especially by menopause in hormone depletion and adrenal exhaustion, where we are then discarded for our services rendered out to the pasture. Whereas before, yes there were issues of oppression, but women's femininity was supported and they were Queen of the Castle. So I'm not sure which version women are more slaves... under the guise of "equality" by having women work like men, get paid less and still do all the at home jobs (we have different hormones and bodies and our gifts run far beyond the physical nature of strength and endurance where men are made for that) or one where women didn't have the same rights as men, but not expected to be a man in order to have equality. I think something new is needed.
Masculinity doesn't have to be patriarchy nor expressing the feminine be oppression. I, for one, am into bringing back the essence of F/M roles that truly feed and support each others' traits to enhance the strengths and expressions of them, not suppression so that we become or play a man/masculine role. It's a yin/yang. I don't want to be a man and so I don't want to try and fill that role in order to convince myself I am equal. We aren't equal. the masculine supports the feminine to express and vice versa in a complementary way.
I'm just not sure how that can come back, or rather be created in a new way - one that isn't oppressive, but allows traits of both to flourish. I think for sure, setting boundaries and standards and not trying to "teach" men how to treat us is a start...by not addressing bad behavior but just blocking instead...will that lead us there?
Gender roles are way confused, almost being instigated to be so under another guise of tolerance and we are all frustrated it seems...and it's even made political! Not to mention, women are playing into the pick-me culture with degrading sex photos all over the internet to "win" love and approval by the MAN ...and they have their pick of easy porn access anywhere now.. ruins and degrades real sex and relationships by altering dopamine chemistry and reality of REAL life with a REAL person a complex and deep experience vs a superficial dopamine hit.
I've not paid for a date in 10 years. Even if I went on multiple with someone. I suggest not paying at all ever. I've been told I used them for money or food exactly ZERO times.
I feel like men mostly value money and sex. Money = power and if they are into you, they should be willing to share said power.
The most you should do is pay for a coffee. In my experience, the men want to pay. Even if I offer.
… and if she doesn’t give him sex, then she just “used him for a free meal”
Pfft. I'd rather eat ramen than spend a couple of hours with some dorky or douchey dude
Exactly- the assertion is horrible
I can totally relate to HER managing of the situation. We are taught early on in our female lives to set soft boundries, keep the peace, don't be a bitch, don't be aggressive and we feel guilty when we set boundries as she clearly did. We apologize, excuse and offer compromise. I could feel my nervous system activating as I read the text exchange firstly becauseit was terrifying.. and second because I have been there. Holding the OP in the light and sending her B2B karma!
This book changed my life. All women should read it.
"Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men."
by Lundy Bancroft
Agreed. It's EXCELLENT.
Yes me too, even after divorcing a narcissistic emotionally abusive ex and thought I understood his behaviour reasonably well, this book was an eye opener. Yes,
These men do know what they’re doing
This book is a game changer. I thought that I knew enough about spotting the signs of NPD. It doesn’t matter. You just need to look out for the signs of abusive men. It also applies to organizations and friendships too. This book is a must read!
If you’re still trauma bonded in the relshp and want out read *Should I Stay or Should I Go?* by Lundy Bancroft
Got me to finally understand my abusive ex husband and get out.
This is the book that woke me up to exactly what I had been dealing with in my last marriage to a violently abusive narcissist. Predictably he continued his emotional, verbal and at the end of the 10-year marriage, legal-system abuse even after having read the book. As I educated myself about Narcissistic Personality Disorder I also read Lundy’s *Should I Stay or should I Go? * follow-up book which helped me finally break my trauma bond enough to exit. However, in neither book does Lundy bring up NPD. He never alerts the reader to the probability she is living with a narc who will never change because his brain was damaged by early trauma and lacks neural activity in the brain region for empathy. New science, actual brain scans. This must be understood and fortunately the information is slowly going mainstream. Watch Drs Sam Vankin and Ramini on YouTube for full explanations.
There's a Venn-diagram of common patriarchal abuse, usually by men on women, in romantic and parental relationships, and abuse coming from the more coercive types of Cluster B's on anyone close to them.
This book is a life-saver. I hand out copies!
Just bought this
There's no actual empathy for her feelings, just a focus on "why aren't you behaving how i want you to" and "explain your reasons so i can convince you not to trust yourself and to do what i want you to do."
Also, as Lynette pointed out, the "you owe me" theme "because i was a gentleman and put in effort"
‘I was a gentleman’ = I did the cosplay, why won’t you sleep with me?
That caught my eye too. In the bottom left corner of the 1st page there is something along the lines of 'I am not asking you to change, but could you just go with the sexual chemistry I am feeling?' Directly after her stating that isn't where she is at nor wants to be at this stage of their dating. 🚩
1) Thank you for this. The actual screens shots are so helpful.
2) Regarding "Woman of the Hour"
There's this part that was so well done. She's at a bar with her weird/creepy/pushy older neighbor who she thinks of as a friend and he makes a pass at her and she doesn't respond in kind and he gets butt hurt and she sleeps with him because it's easier that dealing with the fallout if she doesn't.
The fallout can be anything from assault to awkwardness in the laundry room and she's just tired. Tired of trying to make it as an actress. Tired of LA. And she's been conditioned to appease and deflect conflict and... it's just easier.
The scenes are underplayed. No dramatic music or deep closeups in the mirror or confessions to girlfriends. It's banal. It's normal. It's happened before, it'll happen again.
And, it sets the stage for later in the movie, where she's at another bar with another creep. A much creepier creep. A stranger who she doesn't know as a "friend."
This time, she listens to her intuition. And in doing so, literally saves her own life.
Ugh I hated the neighbor and identified with that feeling of “oh damn… this guy isn’t my friend, he also just wants in my pants”
There's a scene in the TV Show The Good Place where Eleanor says to Chiti, haven't you ever slept with someone just to get them to shut up? 😞
I do wish that this knowledge had been available to me 25 years ago.
I was dating I guy I met through a dating service (back when you chose by going through a book of options) and decided that he wasn't what I was looking for. Every time I said no, he would wait a few days or weeks and then offer another date, upping the intricacy of the date and with some type of response to any reason I had given him - for example, when I told him I couldn't go on a long, involved date because I needed to care for my dog, he hired a dog sitter. Things escalated repeatedly; the last escalation, which occurred when the man unexpectedly showed up at my house, occurred when a male friend of mine was with me (thankfully); it ended with a restraining order that had no end date, because the man had demonstrated, repeatedly, that he would keep coming back, and I was afraid that if there was an end date (his lawyer proposed 1 year, then 5) he'd come back when it was over. The judge agreed with my refusal, and the order is still in place.
I haven't seen him in over 25 years, and I've moved since then - but just writing about it gives me the shivers.
I'm so sorry 😢 I'm very glad it's been a long time now, but I know the fear never really goes away.
I fell into a situationship with someone who disrespected me on day 1. Because I was trained to give benefit of the doubt, I let it continue a few weeks. When I stopped responding, he wrote to me in ‘blood’ on a ‘hospital’ paper napkin. The manipulation was insane.
That's truly disturbing. I'm sorry that happened to you, and I hope you're protected from him.
The warning in writing to never contact me again does work. My ex was stalking me for months until a wrote a very strongly worded email asking him to never contact me or approach me again and that it was harassement. Then it all stopped. They get it. I made no threat in my email and it was civil, but he is smart enough to know what a written warning means.
Yup. Thank you for sharing your experience. Odd how "legal language" perks up their ears in a way that "language coming from women" rarely does.
Lord, this gave me chills, having experienced this kind of thing and having had it escalate to the point of violence and even, in one point, having to move, change my phone number and work, in order to stay safe. It’s only a tiny thing, but in the very beginning, when he recounts the things he’s done: “I have been quite the gentleman, have put in time and effort ….” BLAH! That’s just BEING A HUMAN interested in a relationship, and he wants extra credit. But it feels like an early warning to what ultimately turned into his insistence that he should have what he wants, no matter what. Entitlement. No boundaries. Rapist mindset.
https://people.com/anna-kendrick-recalls-seven-year-abusive-relationship-8732862
P.S. Anna Kendrick is also a survivor of an abusive relationship in which her ex psychologically manipulated her and gaslighted her to the point where she thought she was the one causing the problems.
Reading these exchanges makes me anxious and I am not even in danger of him contacting me. Sometimes a man can make a comment that makes us uncomfortable, but he has other positive green flags. That is what communication is for. A good man would recognize that and pull back. It seems to me that the most important thing a man can do is to make the woman feel comfortable and safe. Ultimately he responded based on his personality, so he is always going to push a woman regardless of her feelings. RUN.
This man is a boundary violator and a sex pest. He does not care at all about the woman just his fragile brittle ego and his needs (these are really wants but we all know many men claim these are needs-ugh). No is no, a subtle no or a loud no. Always block these men because we know pests just find a different way to enter our lives! I blocked one of these pests 3 months ago, he took my kindness for weakness!
Boy, did my mama bear start to come out reading his comments. I found myself almost yelling at my computer 'Dude, she said NO!' Why are some men so thick in the brain??
They’ve been taught that women should be ‘hard to get’ (virtuous) so if she resists, she’s a ‘good female’ who should be pursued until she submits
THIS! People who won’t take the hint even if figuratively bludgeoned over the head with it.
Sending a clear, concise email that says, “Don’t contact me again in any way,” removes all doubt as to your intent - maybe not to his entitled butt - to any authority figure.
I think it's important to specifically include the words "in writing" (as in "I am asking you, in writing, to never contact me again.”) as it's the words "IN WRITING" that indicate the person is now keeping a record for potential legal action.
Yes!
It really is terrifying. The entitlement is mind blowing. Vote blue.
AMEN.