I think it's also important to note that, in the example that Jennie posted on Facebook, the man in question was also asking that we give all men the benefit of the doubt by not blocking" too quickly" (whatever that means) because some poor timid forest creatures "are hiding/protecting themselves from pain and wasted time and effort." COME ON. This is a ridiculous request, and I highly doubt this gambit was made in good faith. This person is highly likely to keep demanding that the woman/NB person keep explaining and explaining and explaining, while continuously moving the goal posts, coming up with more hypotheticals and straw person arguments, and generally just wasting OUR time. Don't fall for it. Block as quickly as you want without worrying some absolute gem is being overlooked... that's literally why we study the dang patterns!
Always a red flag for me when the precious men speak of "protecting themselves" as if we don't also lose time and money to bad relationships in addition to more serious problems
If they’d stop giving us ample reason to block quickly, we’d stop doing so. I do wish they’d give me a reason to even take a second glance, rather than making gagging sounds as I block.
I throw myself into educating myself and my children. Why in the world would they think I want to throw myself into educating a grown manchild? About anything.
Yeah there's no real return on that energy or investment. It's just information washing over men. Earned knowledge requires the pursuit and work to acquire and understand the information. And that's the kind of knowledge that starts to change a person. Even more so if they will apply that earned knowledge so that they can gain wisdom from it. But yeah, until they want something different or better they are stuck in their ways.
I have to confess that I've been talking my 79 yo father through some of these concepts. Primarily, the idea of text, subtext & context. I didn't think he was really listening, but then he told me about a colleague who had been due to come over with a friend for a lesson (he's a musician). She stood him up & never mentioned it. He wasn't fussed & didn't bring it up either. Then, the other day, she started telling him all about her exceptionally busy life & just how much she had to do on any one day (she listed it all). He said he applied what I'd been telling him - context was she'd stood him up without acknowledging it & was now telling him how busy she was, therefore subtext was probably that the oversharing over her busy life was her justifying standing him up. He was quite pleased with himself & I have to say, I was a little proud of him!
I know two unattached great guys. And it is fascinating to me how obtuse they can be. Even when they have asked for advice on various situations (not dating) it goes in one ear, out the other. And as much as I like them as people, I still wouldn't try to explain the BHDM tenets.
People can be good people even if they don't take some advice. I have worked with both of them for several years (education) and I know them pretty well. I even think they could be someone's needle. I still don't feel a need to share BHDM with either of them. 🤷🏻♀️
But didn't you say that when they ask your advice it goes in one ear and out the other? That implies that they listen and never follow any of it, not that they choose what to follow some of it selectively. It's apparently happened frequently enough that you called them obtuse. If they are consistently asking for your thoughts or advice and then not following it, they are disrespecting you and wasting your time. Either way, you are a 100% right about not sharing BHDM with them.
If a man asked me directly, I'd say 'why, yes I do use BHDM'. Otherwise, no reason to share. The current guy I'm seeing I found out of 500 profiles I'd burned (well, I'd chatted to quite a few others but he stood out). I don't want to give my hand away at this stage. If later on, we were chatting about how we met, part of sharing and building a bond, I'd be truthful.
In Jennie's case, she has a public profile which is googlable as the inventor of BHDM, so it's neither feasible or desirable for her to hide that once in a face-to-face situation of dating IMO. It's hard when you have a public profile (I have one as an academic too) as it limits how much you can hide and reveal over time and also makes safety issues more problematic, so more disclosure early (plus doing your own googling) is probably the way to go.
It is the same concept as not going to couples therapy with an abusuve partner. All it does is teach then how to hide it better and also how to use the therapy concepts against you and future women they might date. By teaching them the concepts, they can manipulate you even more and take away your power to see them for who they are.
I hope this isn’t too off topic. I have a WOMAN acquaintance who often wants advice about dating and dating sites, and I have pointed her in the direction of BHDM more than once. She’s STILL ignoring all the red flags like “Good morning, baby” when they haven’t even met, and continuing to engage until they start asking her what sex acts she’s willing to perform. Then messaging me in a tizzy asking for help and when I say “Block him, he’s toxic” she agrees and then goes back a couple days later to try to reason with him some more in an attempt to turn him into a decent human being. I guess my point here is that even women who could seriously benefit from BHDM refuse to because it’s easier to keep doing what they are doing, so the odds that men will make the effort are incredibly slim. I pretty much had to B2B her as well, because it’s such a wasted effort.
If she is just an acquaintance then you've probably gone above and beyond, but If she keeps coming to you, I would encourage grace -and continue the broken record advice. Many of us of a certain age, especially with limited dating experience, and perhaps with a history of abuse, have internalized mysogyny and we can't see what we don't know. You can give her a copy of Jennie's book next spring ☺️
Yep, she’s the product of a narcissistic parent, so she keeps going to the dry well trying to get her needs met. I have empathy, but I’m done wore out!
I had that friend too! I was the only person who understood and supported her through periods of suicidal thoughts, apparently, though I wonder now who else she said that to. She was very flaky and often cancelled in me, then begged me to come and see her (she never came to me because it was too much effort) She dated some disasters including a conman who tried to take her money, ignored red flags, then turned against me when I tried to give her supportive advice. I enjoyed her company but had to close down the connection when I realised it was all one way. It’s sad to lose a friendship but I was learning how to maintain my own healthy boundaries.
I love the picture with fish 🤣Have just realized my toxic ex had a similar one in his dating profile, long ago b4 anyone had even thought about BHDM 🤣🤣🤣If only I knew what it really meant 😂
Thank you so much for clarifying. I love sharing exciting, interesting and new ideas. So I would have the tendency to start talking about this early on. I see the need to be a bit more reserved
The more I read Burned Haystack, the more I realize that I've always used it, and I've been online dating off and on since the mid 90s. Instead of clocking rhetorical patterns, I simply thought 'shallow, boring and entitled. Pass.'
I felt guilty enough about being 'judgmental' that I kept my thoughts to myself. But there was never a time when I gave a 'shallow, boring, entitled' man a chance and did not fiercely regret it.
So this rhetorical patterning analysis is a tremendous relief. It validates my intuition.
Oh gracious, this cracked me UP: “They won’t even read your profile; do you really think they’re going to do a deep dive on applied rhetoric grounded in feminist praxis and critical discourse analysis?” 🤭😂🤡 Nailed it.
I think it's also important to note that, in the example that Jennie posted on Facebook, the man in question was also asking that we give all men the benefit of the doubt by not blocking" too quickly" (whatever that means) because some poor timid forest creatures "are hiding/protecting themselves from pain and wasted time and effort." COME ON. This is a ridiculous request, and I highly doubt this gambit was made in good faith. This person is highly likely to keep demanding that the woman/NB person keep explaining and explaining and explaining, while continuously moving the goal posts, coming up with more hypotheticals and straw person arguments, and generally just wasting OUR time. Don't fall for it. Block as quickly as you want without worrying some absolute gem is being overlooked... that's literally why we study the dang patterns!
Always a red flag for me when the precious men speak of "protecting themselves" as if we don't also lose time and money to bad relationships in addition to more serious problems
If they’d stop giving us ample reason to block quickly, we’d stop doing so. I do wish they’d give me a reason to even take a second glance, rather than making gagging sounds as I block.
For real!!!
So true!
😂 I'm imagining a lot, a LOT of gagging as you move through the apps! LoL
I love your monster too Jennie 👹❤️
aww, thank you 🥰
We don't want to take on the exhausting emotional and mental labor of educating men who could educate themselves.
I throw myself into educating myself and my children. Why in the world would they think I want to throw myself into educating a grown manchild? About anything.
Yeah there's no real return on that energy or investment. It's just information washing over men. Earned knowledge requires the pursuit and work to acquire and understand the information. And that's the kind of knowledge that starts to change a person. Even more so if they will apply that earned knowledge so that they can gain wisdom from it. But yeah, until they want something different or better they are stuck in their ways.
Change is hard for all humans.
I have to confess that I've been talking my 79 yo father through some of these concepts. Primarily, the idea of text, subtext & context. I didn't think he was really listening, but then he told me about a colleague who had been due to come over with a friend for a lesson (he's a musician). She stood him up & never mentioned it. He wasn't fussed & didn't bring it up either. Then, the other day, she started telling him all about her exceptionally busy life & just how much she had to do on any one day (she listed it all). He said he applied what I'd been telling him - context was she'd stood him up without acknowledging it & was now telling him how busy she was, therefore subtext was probably that the oversharing over her busy life was her justifying standing him up. He was quite pleased with himself & I have to say, I was a little proud of him!
Although it's rare that people can change; those that really want to are capable of it.
Good for your dad
WE ALL LOVE YOUR MONSTER! <3
WE ARE IN THE BAD PLACE!
Interesting article...I would include 'golf clubs' in addition to fish...
motorcycles, trucks, other dead animals, etc.
I know two unattached great guys. And it is fascinating to me how obtuse they can be. Even when they have asked for advice on various situations (not dating) it goes in one ear, out the other. And as much as I like them as people, I still wouldn't try to explain the BHDM tenets.
What makes them so great?
Yes, somebody who asks for advice and then ignores it seems like a person who doesn't value my thoughts or my time. Not a great guy.
Someone who asks for advice and then ignores it is also known as an “askhole.” 😆Thank you.
People can be good people even if they don't take some advice. I have worked with both of them for several years (education) and I know them pretty well. I even think they could be someone's needle. I still don't feel a need to share BHDM with either of them. 🤷🏻♀️
But didn't you say that when they ask your advice it goes in one ear and out the other? That implies that they listen and never follow any of it, not that they choose what to follow some of it selectively. It's apparently happened frequently enough that you called them obtuse. If they are consistently asking for your thoughts or advice and then not following it, they are disrespecting you and wasting your time. Either way, you are a 100% right about not sharing BHDM with them.
They are probably stealing your ideas behind your back.
This is so helpful. And I love the Fight Club tie in. We need our version and this is definitely it. Woot woot to the monster. 💪🏽💜
If a man asked me directly, I'd say 'why, yes I do use BHDM'. Otherwise, no reason to share. The current guy I'm seeing I found out of 500 profiles I'd burned (well, I'd chatted to quite a few others but he stood out). I don't want to give my hand away at this stage. If later on, we were chatting about how we met, part of sharing and building a bond, I'd be truthful.
In Jennie's case, she has a public profile which is googlable as the inventor of BHDM, so it's neither feasible or desirable for her to hide that once in a face-to-face situation of dating IMO. It's hard when you have a public profile (I have one as an academic too) as it limits how much you can hide and reveal over time and also makes safety issues more problematic, so more disclosure early (plus doing your own googling) is probably the way to go.
It is the same concept as not going to couples therapy with an abusuve partner. All it does is teach then how to hide it better and also how to use the therapy concepts against you and future women they might date. By teaching them the concepts, they can manipulate you even more and take away your power to see them for who they are.
Yes! A brilliant analogy!
I hope this isn’t too off topic. I have a WOMAN acquaintance who often wants advice about dating and dating sites, and I have pointed her in the direction of BHDM more than once. She’s STILL ignoring all the red flags like “Good morning, baby” when they haven’t even met, and continuing to engage until they start asking her what sex acts she’s willing to perform. Then messaging me in a tizzy asking for help and when I say “Block him, he’s toxic” she agrees and then goes back a couple days later to try to reason with him some more in an attempt to turn him into a decent human being. I guess my point here is that even women who could seriously benefit from BHDM refuse to because it’s easier to keep doing what they are doing, so the odds that men will make the effort are incredibly slim. I pretty much had to B2B her as well, because it’s such a wasted effort.
If she is just an acquaintance then you've probably gone above and beyond, but If she keeps coming to you, I would encourage grace -and continue the broken record advice. Many of us of a certain age, especially with limited dating experience, and perhaps with a history of abuse, have internalized mysogyny and we can't see what we don't know. You can give her a copy of Jennie's book next spring ☺️
Yep, she’s the product of a narcissistic parent, so she keeps going to the dry well trying to get her needs met. I have empathy, but I’m done wore out!
I had that friend too! I was the only person who understood and supported her through periods of suicidal thoughts, apparently, though I wonder now who else she said that to. She was very flaky and often cancelled in me, then begged me to come and see her (she never came to me because it was too much effort) She dated some disasters including a conman who tried to take her money, ignored red flags, then turned against me when I tried to give her supportive advice. I enjoyed her company but had to close down the connection when I realised it was all one way. It’s sad to lose a friendship but I was learning how to maintain my own healthy boundaries.
I love the picture with fish 🤣Have just realized my toxic ex had a similar one in his dating profile, long ago b4 anyone had even thought about BHDM 🤣🤣🤣If only I knew what it really meant 😂
Dr. Jennie suggesting we say, "What?" if some dude asks us about BH made me laugh so dang hard! 🤣
Thank you so much for clarifying. I love sharing exciting, interesting and new ideas. So I would have the tendency to start talking about this early on. I see the need to be a bit more reserved
Or just talk about it with anyone but men on dating apps! :)
Oh yeah! Like EVERY WOMAN I KNOW
The more I read Burned Haystack, the more I realize that I've always used it, and I've been online dating off and on since the mid 90s. Instead of clocking rhetorical patterns, I simply thought 'shallow, boring and entitled. Pass.'
I felt guilty enough about being 'judgmental' that I kept my thoughts to myself. But there was never a time when I gave a 'shallow, boring, entitled' man a chance and did not fiercely regret it.
So this rhetorical patterning analysis is a tremendous relief. It validates my intuition.
Oh gracious, this cracked me UP: “They won’t even read your profile; do you really think they’re going to do a deep dive on applied rhetoric grounded in feminist praxis and critical discourse analysis?” 🤭😂🤡 Nailed it.