Yes! This also includes any reference to "my love language is physical touch" or I love cuddling and kissing in a man's profile. I now know that I am going to be touched, without consent, and this is their only goal in dating, even if they try to dress it up like they are looking for a relationship.
I have the same experience, but, I feel empowered, do you? Also, no matter how self confident you are, if you weren’t following this method you would be wasting your precious life energy dating a bunch of losers and that would ultimately wear on you, right? Let’s look at the bright side.
I once gave a chance to a love language guy by meeting him at a morning yoga class. Sunlight streaming through the windows; other people six inches away.
He grabbed my big toe and gave it a little squeeze - when I wasn’t facing him and didn’t know it was coming.
Wise words as always, Jennie. I'd like to add 2 personal examples to augment one of your tips (*do not allow them to walk you to your car*), the importance of which may easily go underestimated.
Regardless of whether you are parked in a populated area or not (and I agree we 100% always should be), it's always important to say no to the offer to be walked to our car.
I have three times been assaulted at my car door on a first date in populated areas by a guy moving in unsolicited, grabbing me and shoving his tongue in my mouth. The first was a guy I met on a dating app (with me being parked in an area that had been populated when I arrived but that was somewhat deserted upon my return; extra scary, even though it was still daylight). The other two were men I had known informally IRL for 6 months prior to them asking me out, so my guard was down with them, which is why I let them walk me to my car (in a busy parking lot, in daylight) despite my past negative experience.
So I learned the lesson the hard way. I always walk to my car on my own now on the first date (or longer if it's truly a stranger), no matter how safe I feel or my past experience with a person if ti's someone I've known for a while IRL.
This said, letting a guy walk you to your car is also unsafe for another important reason: Your car has a license plate that is attached to your full name and home address. Even if most people (at least here in Canada, where I live) don't have access to the license plate database, some do and, if they are predatory, are not likely to announce that fact to you.
For me, it also opens a debate I’ve been longing to see, but I know wouldn’t happen in Facebook. I hope it can happen here.
I’m learning tons from BHDM and RIRL, but I’m not 100% aligned as I’m NOT looking for a long-term monogamous relationship. Fresh out of a divorce, I’m looking forward to independence and ideally NOT sharing my lovely clean home with a man.
I’m trying to apply BDHM principles but am more welcoming of early conversations about sex.
Conversations including sex can be rhetorically interesting in their own right. I bet we could easily find rhetorical patterns which would help us B2B the red flags without burning all of them under a carpet bomb. (And yes, I do think most would still get burned).
I’m just hopeful that ethical casual relationships ARE possible.
I still find it very helpful to be in the group, and for clarity, I have no complaints about Jenny’s focus not matching my exact relationship ideals 😂
I'm so glad you're here, and so glad you're finding the content useful! For the record, I have no moral/ethical qualms with relationship styles that aren't long-term monogamy; they're simply not the focus of my method. No one can be all things to all people, and I stay in my lane according to end game because otherwise the whole message loses focus and becomes muddied. I present with clear guidelines, but in actual practice I think everyone should take a salad bar approach--- take what you like, leave what you don't (also now wondering if salad bar references are obsolete post-pandemic, lol).
I'm on board with you Alison, I think. However, I've found that it's impossible to create a casual situation with a man that's to my liking. Everyone I've tried this with lately, still see me only as an object, and are incapable of respecting me, being honest & kind, or able to be friends.
I’ll be honest - I’m struggling too. Going to try some more ‘niche’ sites. I suspect eventually, if ever, I’ll meet someone in the wild. The apps are grim.
I work in a female industry. All my male friends are the husbands of my female friends or recently divorced from my female friends (and I know the reason why 😂).
I do occasionally play tennis in mixed groups, so that might be an option - to join the mixed box-league.
Or their idea of sex is wham-bam-thank-you-ma’am. Or they don’t actually want the friendship alongside the ‘benefits’. Either way, it’s not particularly erotic for me.
Adding to this after a few months of trying it out.
You were right Candance.
I thought I’d found a guy with enough emotional maternity to handle casual, but he was incapable of realising that women require a build-up to the event that is sex.
He wanted friends with benefits, and we were definitely nailing the ‘friends’ side of the equation, which was nice. But the ‘benefits’ side was a mismatch of ideas.
We were both 100% aligned that this was not long-term. Neither of us wanted that, and we were simply enjoying each other’s company and a bit of flirtation was lovely.
However, I think he expected we’d meet at a hotel and just bang. For me, that’s just not a turn on. Long term or short term it didn’t matter, I realise I still need to go out for a nice date, and have sweet nothings whispered into my ear.
Thank you for responding Jenny. This truly meant so much to me and helped me realize I didn't think it's ok to have boundaries or be seen as a bitch. I actually stopped dating, hanging out with friends, going outside... as these men took every shred of interest, eye contact, or polite smile as an invitation to take advantage of me. I felt powerless. After quiting dating I noticed it in my former male dominated workplace. I tried proving myself, fitting in, dressing masculine, being "one of the guys". It snowballed into a coworker harassing me and stalking me with the managers support and encouragement. I kept saying NO, I'm going to court this week for a protection order renewal a year later to say NO again. Thank you for the encouragement and support. Thank you for letting me know I'm not alone and it's not my fault. Thank you for giving me hope that they all aren't like this and I might have a future with a happy relationship someday. Thank you for letting me know that having boundaries will attract a loving person, not scare them away. ❤️
Side Note: I wasn't feeling well and unfriended a guy I've been chatting with for a few years who keeps inviting me to his survival classes where he encourages women to buy knives. I yelled at him for asking me to go hiking and check out caves together. I was sick and confused if he wanted a date and didn't handle it nicely. Because we have mutual friends I wrote him this week and apologized for being a jerk and offered to go platonicly. He said he understood and wants to check out the caves before we get into rainy season. I don't know if he's a needle and I'm still working on communicating my boundaries but I just wanted to share with any ladies struggling with this that it does feel good to be accepted for your boundaries so much more than it ever did being accepted for being pretty or the multitude of superficial things some guys tell us.
Thank you so much for writing, Tiffany 💙. I love this sentence and want to amplify it: "It does feel good to be accepted for your boundaries so much more than it ever did being accepted for being pretty or the multitude of superficial things some guys tell us." Amen. I hope things take an upturn for you . . . actually, I can already tell by your words that they're going to because you're clearly seeing clearly through a lot of toxic bullsh*t that was getting in the way (as it gets in the way for all of us. We're all working together now to call it out and bust it up so that we don't have to be trapped by it).
Aah! lol! I laughed SO hard at your blocking someone who was gluten-freeee!
Thank you for this helpful article - the triangle is particularly awesome sauce. I wish I'd had it back when I was on the dating apps (left them 2 years ago and never looked back). Thank you also for the pragmatism here - this patriarchal world is very unhelpful toward women and we've got to take action to help ourselves.
Oh, about the male gaze-repelling personal adornment - a million times YES to this!!! I have a designated part of my wardrobe that is intentionally hideous: ill-fitting, unflattering and just plain bleh. I joyfully wear this crazy sh*t when I go to Home Depot or other man-heavy stores. The hideous attire and sloppy ponytail works wonders to keep the staring and body scans away!
Ha! I taught in an all-male max-security prison last year, and the guidelines for what women are allowed to wear in there are STRICT (nobody cares about gender progressiveness or personal expression in a max security prison), so I too have a significant wardrobe of decidedly non-sexy, non-attractive clothing!
From an article discussing psychologist Jesse Beting’s book titled “Perv: The Sexual Deviant in All of Us” — in 1948, … Alfred Kinsey published Sexual Behavior in the Human Male. In Perv, Bering notes that Kinsey's research revealed that “75 percent of adult American males were technically ‘sex deviants’ according to the mental health criteria at the time.”
I doubt that percentage has gone down, although the criteria may have changed.
IIRC, he used a sample that was heavily biased toward the prison population for his studies, though. At any rate, I know that there were ethical issues with the subjects he chose for his study, who were not representative of the general population.
Agreed. Being a bitch has nothing to do with being mean. Being a bitch means having boundaries, standing on your own, and acting in your own best interest. All good things 🥰
I did the same thing, it's such a good litmus test and weeds them right out. In addition to saying no to things, asking for them to consider your own idea ("i don't really like those kinds of movies, can we try this other one?"). If they aren't kind, flexible, warm, and supportive right away it's a block :)
I just B2B someone that I had been chatting with for a couple days. Started out a great conversation. We were trying to pin down a day and time we were both available and that’s when he said I could come over as he was working from home and then immediately said “don’t block me”
I was bummed he went there but what was worse, a friend I was discussing dating with didn’t agree with me to let him go. She said I was being too serious and that I’d miss out on potential fun. She said all men try, and once I set the boundaries they will respect you. I know I did the right thing. I just wish I never discussed with her. I know yall here will get it.
This is great, thank you. Jennie I want to share that on those great Jimmy on Relationships videos where he poses as the feminine partner and wears the wig, I'm always stricken by how confident "she" is...because most women have been acculturated to, or hurt/invalidated to the point of, shrinking or being unsure around men, especially men they're in a relationship with. I thought you might find it interesting as well.
I could see blocking someone who is vegan. I eat meat and cook that way and don’t want to have to change it . It’s a personal choice of who you might want to have in a long term relationship your life. The only thing they are being deprived of is me.
Last week I met up with someone who I now see I should have Blocked to Burn before meeting up with me. He ended up telling me after our meet up “I don’t see a romantic relationship with you” after we met up, had a great talk and walked for nearly 2 hours. I was very confused by him saying this because we had connected in some ways I thought were really cool. We both did the same type of therapy and value self growth. I had let it pass that he had said “Your cute” in a text a few days after we started chatting. And yes, he used the wrong homophone. I think my biggest clue was him asking me “how to you feel about intimacy in a relationship, assuming trust, safety, and time are agreed upon?” I should have trusted the shock I felt in my body to his question and immediately blocked. Just because he adds in “assuming trust, safety, and time are agreed upon” doesn’t mean it’s an appropriate question to ask a woman you haven’t even met.
I continue to learn!! Thanks for your important work.
The gluten free part cracked me up! Yes, I’d block that too for different reasons. (You might be bitchy, not! But I’m a hypocrite bc I actually have a gluten sensitivity!) It’s a signal to me that the man will be particular land I just don’t want that. Same with vegans. Maybe I’m wrong, but stuff like that is a conversation, not a declaration on a profile.
Jenny, have you written any posts providing tips for women in writing their profiles so as to minimize the chances of attracting hay or, conversely, to maximize attracting the needle?
Yes! This also includes any reference to "my love language is physical touch" or I love cuddling and kissing in a man's profile. I now know that I am going to be touched, without consent, and this is their only goal in dating, even if they try to dress it up like they are looking for a relationship.
Oh god yes. So sick of the love language dudes.
Hahaha, by applying BHDM 95% of the 10% of men I am attracted to are eliminated. I have a dating drop, not even a puddle!
Yep. Tumbleweeds over here too. But better to be alone than to lower the bar.
I have the same experience, but, I feel empowered, do you? Also, no matter how self confident you are, if you weren’t following this method you would be wasting your precious life energy dating a bunch of losers and that would ultimately wear on you, right? Let’s look at the bright side.
Late to this thread because I just now found you.
I once gave a chance to a love language guy by meeting him at a morning yoga class. Sunlight streaming through the windows; other people six inches away.
He grabbed my big toe and gave it a little squeeze - when I wasn’t facing him and didn’t know it was coming.
Bye.
Ugh me too!!! Like why do I need to know that before you buy me an ice cream cone?!
Wise words as always, Jennie. I'd like to add 2 personal examples to augment one of your tips (*do not allow them to walk you to your car*), the importance of which may easily go underestimated.
Regardless of whether you are parked in a populated area or not (and I agree we 100% always should be), it's always important to say no to the offer to be walked to our car.
I have three times been assaulted at my car door on a first date in populated areas by a guy moving in unsolicited, grabbing me and shoving his tongue in my mouth. The first was a guy I met on a dating app (with me being parked in an area that had been populated when I arrived but that was somewhat deserted upon my return; extra scary, even though it was still daylight). The other two were men I had known informally IRL for 6 months prior to them asking me out, so my guard was down with them, which is why I let them walk me to my car (in a busy parking lot, in daylight) despite my past negative experience.
So I learned the lesson the hard way. I always walk to my car on my own now on the first date (or longer if it's truly a stranger), no matter how safe I feel or my past experience with a person if ti's someone I've known for a while IRL.
This said, letting a guy walk you to your car is also unsafe for another important reason: Your car has a license plate that is attached to your full name and home address. Even if most people (at least here in Canada, where I live) don't have access to the license plate database, some do and, if they are predatory, are not likely to announce that fact to you.
Ugh, I'm so sorry you've had these experiences. 😢
It's also an easy way to see how he handles rejection and being told no.
I am so sorry you experienced this. How horrible.
Thanks for posting this.
For me, it also opens a debate I’ve been longing to see, but I know wouldn’t happen in Facebook. I hope it can happen here.
I’m learning tons from BHDM and RIRL, but I’m not 100% aligned as I’m NOT looking for a long-term monogamous relationship. Fresh out of a divorce, I’m looking forward to independence and ideally NOT sharing my lovely clean home with a man.
I’m trying to apply BDHM principles but am more welcoming of early conversations about sex.
Conversations including sex can be rhetorically interesting in their own right. I bet we could easily find rhetorical patterns which would help us B2B the red flags without burning all of them under a carpet bomb. (And yes, I do think most would still get burned).
I’m just hopeful that ethical casual relationships ARE possible.
I still find it very helpful to be in the group, and for clarity, I have no complaints about Jenny’s focus not matching my exact relationship ideals 😂
I'm so glad you're here, and so glad you're finding the content useful! For the record, I have no moral/ethical qualms with relationship styles that aren't long-term monogamy; they're simply not the focus of my method. No one can be all things to all people, and I stay in my lane according to end game because otherwise the whole message loses focus and becomes muddied. I present with clear guidelines, but in actual practice I think everyone should take a salad bar approach--- take what you like, leave what you don't (also now wondering if salad bar references are obsolete post-pandemic, lol).
Absolutely! I’m so grateful for your method and definitely taking the salad bar approach here.
I'm on board with you Alison, I think. However, I've found that it's impossible to create a casual situation with a man that's to my liking. Everyone I've tried this with lately, still see me only as an object, and are incapable of respecting me, being honest & kind, or able to be friends.
I’ll be honest - I’m struggling too. Going to try some more ‘niche’ sites. I suspect eventually, if ever, I’ll meet someone in the wild. The apps are grim.
I work in a female industry. All my male friends are the husbands of my female friends or recently divorced from my female friends (and I know the reason why 😂).
I do occasionally play tennis in mixed groups, so that might be an option - to join the mixed box-league.
Do you have any male friends you could convert? I've had much better luck that way :)
Agree. What I've found is that they want FWB, but if YOU want it, they judge you for it.
Women aren't supposed to be ok with no strings attached lol.
Or their idea of sex is wham-bam-thank-you-ma’am. Or they don’t actually want the friendship alongside the ‘benefits’. Either way, it’s not particularly erotic for me.
Adding to this after a few months of trying it out.
You were right Candance.
I thought I’d found a guy with enough emotional maternity to handle casual, but he was incapable of realising that women require a build-up to the event that is sex.
He wanted friends with benefits, and we were definitely nailing the ‘friends’ side of the equation, which was nice. But the ‘benefits’ side was a mismatch of ideas.
We were both 100% aligned that this was not long-term. Neither of us wanted that, and we were simply enjoying each other’s company and a bit of flirtation was lovely.
However, I think he expected we’d meet at a hotel and just bang. For me, that’s just not a turn on. Long term or short term it didn’t matter, I realise I still need to go out for a nice date, and have sweet nothings whispered into my ear.
He either didn’t get it or wasn’t capable.
So I called it off.
Thank you for responding Jenny. This truly meant so much to me and helped me realize I didn't think it's ok to have boundaries or be seen as a bitch. I actually stopped dating, hanging out with friends, going outside... as these men took every shred of interest, eye contact, or polite smile as an invitation to take advantage of me. I felt powerless. After quiting dating I noticed it in my former male dominated workplace. I tried proving myself, fitting in, dressing masculine, being "one of the guys". It snowballed into a coworker harassing me and stalking me with the managers support and encouragement. I kept saying NO, I'm going to court this week for a protection order renewal a year later to say NO again. Thank you for the encouragement and support. Thank you for letting me know I'm not alone and it's not my fault. Thank you for giving me hope that they all aren't like this and I might have a future with a happy relationship someday. Thank you for letting me know that having boundaries will attract a loving person, not scare them away. ❤️
Side Note: I wasn't feeling well and unfriended a guy I've been chatting with for a few years who keeps inviting me to his survival classes where he encourages women to buy knives. I yelled at him for asking me to go hiking and check out caves together. I was sick and confused if he wanted a date and didn't handle it nicely. Because we have mutual friends I wrote him this week and apologized for being a jerk and offered to go platonicly. He said he understood and wants to check out the caves before we get into rainy season. I don't know if he's a needle and I'm still working on communicating my boundaries but I just wanted to share with any ladies struggling with this that it does feel good to be accepted for your boundaries so much more than it ever did being accepted for being pretty or the multitude of superficial things some guys tell us.
Thank you so much for writing, Tiffany 💙. I love this sentence and want to amplify it: "It does feel good to be accepted for your boundaries so much more than it ever did being accepted for being pretty or the multitude of superficial things some guys tell us." Amen. I hope things take an upturn for you . . . actually, I can already tell by your words that they're going to because you're clearly seeing clearly through a lot of toxic bullsh*t that was getting in the way (as it gets in the way for all of us. We're all working together now to call it out and bust it up so that we don't have to be trapped by it).
Aah! lol! I laughed SO hard at your blocking someone who was gluten-freeee!
Thank you for this helpful article - the triangle is particularly awesome sauce. I wish I'd had it back when I was on the dating apps (left them 2 years ago and never looked back). Thank you also for the pragmatism here - this patriarchal world is very unhelpful toward women and we've got to take action to help ourselves.
Oh, about the male gaze-repelling personal adornment - a million times YES to this!!! I have a designated part of my wardrobe that is intentionally hideous: ill-fitting, unflattering and just plain bleh. I joyfully wear this crazy sh*t when I go to Home Depot or other man-heavy stores. The hideous attire and sloppy ponytail works wonders to keep the staring and body scans away!
Ha! I taught in an all-male max-security prison last year, and the guidelines for what women are allowed to wear in there are STRICT (nobody cares about gender progressiveness or personal expression in a max security prison), so I too have a significant wardrobe of decidedly non-sexy, non-attractive clothing!
Dr. Young, WOW! That environment sounds intense! P.S. 3 more cheers for not cute attire!
From an article discussing psychologist Jesse Beting’s book titled “Perv: The Sexual Deviant in All of Us” — in 1948, … Alfred Kinsey published Sexual Behavior in the Human Male. In Perv, Bering notes that Kinsey's research revealed that “75 percent of adult American males were technically ‘sex deviants’ according to the mental health criteria at the time.”
I doubt that percentage has gone down, although the criteria may have changed.
IIRC, he used a sample that was heavily biased toward the prison population for his studies, though. At any rate, I know that there were ethical issues with the subjects he chose for his study, who were not representative of the general population.
I came across an article published in 2022 about deviance. Very good read.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00224499.2022.2109568#abstract
My "dating coach" (a co-worker 15 years younger) than me told me, "I like to kind of take the piss out of them right off the bat."
I was a naive 47 year old baby dater who had been with my late husband since I was 18.
I didn't understand, "Why would you be mean?"
I quickly got it. It's not "mean" to be, as Jennie says, kind of a bitch. It's an essential strat to weed out the unworthy.
Agreed. Being a bitch has nothing to do with being mean. Being a bitch means having boundaries, standing on your own, and acting in your own best interest. All good things 🥰
I did the same thing, it's such a good litmus test and weeds them right out. In addition to saying no to things, asking for them to consider your own idea ("i don't really like those kinds of movies, can we try this other one?"). If they aren't kind, flexible, warm, and supportive right away it's a block :)
Totally. I like to tease and give them a bit of a hard time.
I just B2B someone that I had been chatting with for a couple days. Started out a great conversation. We were trying to pin down a day and time we were both available and that’s when he said I could come over as he was working from home and then immediately said “don’t block me”
I was bummed he went there but what was worse, a friend I was discussing dating with didn’t agree with me to let him go. She said I was being too serious and that I’d miss out on potential fun. She said all men try, and once I set the boundaries they will respect you. I know I did the right thing. I just wish I never discussed with her. I know yall here will get it.
This is great, thank you. Jennie I want to share that on those great Jimmy on Relationships videos where he poses as the feminine partner and wears the wig, I'm always stricken by how confident "she" is...because most women have been acculturated to, or hurt/invalidated to the point of, shrinking or being unsure around men, especially men they're in a relationship with. I thought you might find it interesting as well.
Excellent point -- yes, I definitely find this interesting! That's a fascinating gender study in itself, what you're bringing up here.
I could see blocking someone who is vegan. I eat meat and cook that way and don’t want to have to change it . It’s a personal choice of who you might want to have in a long term relationship your life. The only thing they are being deprived of is me.
I block anyone who is vegan because or anyone who’s comments go against my value that all bodies are good bodies and food has no moral value.
FELICES Y GRACIAS
Such good advice! Thank you so much!
Excellent advice; as ever Jenny ❤️
Last week I met up with someone who I now see I should have Blocked to Burn before meeting up with me. He ended up telling me after our meet up “I don’t see a romantic relationship with you” after we met up, had a great talk and walked for nearly 2 hours. I was very confused by him saying this because we had connected in some ways I thought were really cool. We both did the same type of therapy and value self growth. I had let it pass that he had said “Your cute” in a text a few days after we started chatting. And yes, he used the wrong homophone. I think my biggest clue was him asking me “how to you feel about intimacy in a relationship, assuming trust, safety, and time are agreed upon?” I should have trusted the shock I felt in my body to his question and immediately blocked. Just because he adds in “assuming trust, safety, and time are agreed upon” doesn’t mean it’s an appropriate question to ask a woman you haven’t even met.
I continue to learn!! Thanks for your important work.
The gluten free part cracked me up! Yes, I’d block that too for different reasons. (You might be bitchy, not! But I’m a hypocrite bc I actually have a gluten sensitivity!) It’s a signal to me that the man will be particular land I just don’t want that. Same with vegans. Maybe I’m wrong, but stuff like that is a conversation, not a declaration on a profile.
Jenny, have you written any posts providing tips for women in writing their profiles so as to minimize the chances of attracting hay or, conversely, to maximize attracting the needle?