Yes! This also includes any reference to "my love language is physical touch" or I love cuddling and kissing in a man's profile. I now know that I am going to be touched, without consent, and this is their only goal in dating, even if they try to dress it up like they are looking for a relationship.
Wise words as always, Jennie. I'd like to add 2 personal examples to augment one of your tips (*do not allow them to walk you to your car*), the importance of which may easily go underestimated.
Regardless of whether you are parked in a populated area or not (and I agree we 100% always should be), it's always important to say no to the offer to be walked to our car.
I have three times been assaulted at my car door on a first date in populated areas by a guy moving in unsolicited, grabbing me and shoving his tongue in my mouth. The first was a guy I met on a dating app (with me being parked in an area that had been populated when I arrived but that was somewhat deserted upon my return; extra scary, even though it was still daylight). The other two were men I had known informally IRL for 6 months prior to them asking me out, so my guard was down with them, which is why I let them walk me to my car (in a busy parking lot, in daylight) despite my past negative experience.
So I learned the lesson the hard way. I always walk to my car on my own now on the first date (or longer if it's truly a stranger), no matter how safe I feel or my past experience with a person if ti's someone I've known for a while IRL.
This said, letting a guy walk you to your car is also unsafe for another important reason: Your car has a license plate that is attached to your full name and home address. Even if most people (at least here in Canada, where I live) don't have access to the license plate database, some do and, if they are predatory, are not likely to announce that fact to you.
For me, it also opens a debate I’ve been longing to see, but I know wouldn’t happen in Facebook. I hope it can happen here.
I’m learning tons from BHDM and RIRL, but I’m not 100% aligned as I’m NOT looking for a long-term monogamous relationship. Fresh out of a divorce, I’m looking forward to independence and ideally NOT sharing my lovely clean home with a man.
I’m trying to apply BDHM principles but am more welcoming of early conversations about sex.
Conversations including sex can be rhetorically interesting in their own right. I bet we could easily find rhetorical patterns which would help us B2B the red flags without burning all of them under a carpet bomb. (And yes, I do think most would still get burned).
I’m just hopeful that ethical casual relationships ARE possible.
I still find it very helpful to be in the group, and for clarity, I have no complaints about Jenny’s focus not matching my exact relationship ideals 😂
I'm so glad you're here, and so glad you're finding the content useful! For the record, I have no moral/ethical qualms with relationship styles that aren't long-term monogamy; they're simply not the focus of my method. No one can be all things to all people, and I stay in my lane according to end game because otherwise the whole message loses focus and becomes muddied. I present with clear guidelines, but in actual practice I think everyone should take a salad bar approach--- take what you like, leave what you don't (also now wondering if salad bar references are obsolete post-pandemic, lol).
I'm on board with you Alison, I think. However, I've found that it's impossible to create a casual situation with a man that's to my liking. Everyone I've tried this with lately, still see me only as an object, and are incapable of respecting me, being honest & kind, or able to be friends.
I’ll be honest - I’m struggling too. Going to try some more ‘niche’ sites. I suspect eventually, if ever, I’ll meet someone in the wild. The apps are grim.
Thank you for responding Jenny. This truly meant so much to me and helped me realize I didn't think it's ok to have boundaries or be seen as a bitch. I actually stopped dating, hanging out with friends, going outside... as these men took every shred of interest, eye contact, or polite smile as an invitation to take advantage of me. I felt powerless. After quiting dating I noticed it in my former male dominated workplace. I tried proving myself, fitting in, dressing masculine, being "one of the guys". It snowballed into a coworker harassing me and stalking me with the managers support and encouragement. I kept saying NO, I'm going to court this week for a protection order renewal a year later to say NO again. Thank you for the encouragement and support. Thank you for letting me know I'm not alone and it's not my fault. Thank you for giving me hope that they all aren't like this and I might have a future with a happy relationship someday. Thank you for letting me know that having boundaries will attract a loving person, not scare them away. ❤️
Side Note: I wasn't feeling well and unfriended a guy I've been chatting with for a few years who keeps inviting me to his survival classes where he encourages women to buy knives. I yelled at him for asking me to go hiking and check out caves together. I was sick and confused if he wanted a date and didn't handle it nicely. Because we have mutual friends I wrote him this week and apologized for being a jerk and offered to go platonicly. He said he understood and wants to check out the caves before we get into rainy season. I don't know if he's a needle and I'm still working on communicating my boundaries but I just wanted to share with any ladies struggling with this that it does feel good to be accepted for your boundaries so much more than it ever did being accepted for being pretty or the multitude of superficial things some guys tell us.
Thank you so much for writing, Tiffany 💙. I love this sentence and want to amplify it: "It does feel good to be accepted for your boundaries so much more than it ever did being accepted for being pretty or the multitude of superficial things some guys tell us." Amen. I hope things take an upturn for you . . . actually, I can already tell by your words that they're going to because you're clearly seeing clearly through a lot of toxic bullsh*t that was getting in the way (as it gets in the way for all of us. We're all working together now to call it out and bust it up so that we don't have to be trapped by it).
Aah! lol! I laughed SO hard at your blocking someone who was gluten-freeee!
Thank you for this helpful article - the triangle is particularly awesome sauce. I wish I'd had it back when I was on the dating apps (left them 2 years ago and never looked back). Thank you also for the pragmatism here - this patriarchal world is very unhelpful toward women and we've got to take action to help ourselves.
Oh, about the male gaze-repelling personal adornment - a million times YES to this!!! I have a designated part of my wardrobe that is intentionally hideous: ill-fitting, unflattering and just plain bleh. I joyfully wear this crazy sh*t when I go to Home Depot or other man-heavy stores. The hideous attire and sloppy ponytail works wonders to keep the staring and body scans away!
Ha! I taught in an all-male max-security prison last year, and the guidelines for what women are allowed to wear in there are STRICT (nobody cares about gender progressiveness or personal expression in a max security prison), so I too have a significant wardrobe of decidedly non-sexy, non-attractive clothing!
I could see blocking someone who is vegan. I eat meat and cook that way and don’t want to have to change it . It’s a personal choice of who you might want to have in a long term relationship your life. The only thing they are being deprived of is me.
From an article discussing psychologist Jesse Beting’s book titled “Perv: The Sexual Deviant in All of Us” — in 1948, … Alfred Kinsey published Sexual Behavior in the Human Male. In Perv, Bering notes that Kinsey's research revealed that “75 percent of adult American males were technically ‘sex deviants’ according to the mental health criteria at the time.”
I doubt that percentage has gone down, although the criteria may have changed.
IIRC, he used a sample that was heavily biased toward the prison population for his studies, though. At any rate, I know that there were ethical issues with the subjects he chose for his study, who were not representative of the general population.
This is great, thank you. Jennie I want to share that on those great Jimmy on Relationships videos where he poses as the feminine partner and wears the wig, I'm always stricken by how confident "she" is...because most women have been acculturated to, or hurt/invalidated to the point of, shrinking or being unsure around men, especially men they're in a relationship with. I thought you might find it interesting as well.
Agreed. Being a bitch has nothing to do with being mean. Being a bitch means having boundaries, standing on your own, and acting in your own best interest. All good things 🥰
I did the same thing, it's such a good litmus test and weeds them right out. In addition to saying no to things, asking for them to consider your own idea ("i don't really like those kinds of movies, can we try this other one?"). If they aren't kind, flexible, warm, and supportive right away it's a block :)
The gluten free part cracked me up! Yes, I’d block that too for different reasons. (You might be bitchy, not! But I’m a hypocrite bc I actually have a gluten sensitivity!) It’s a signal to me that the man will be particular land I just don’t want that. Same with vegans. Maybe I’m wrong, but stuff like that is a conversation, not a declaration on a profile.
Exception to the gluten free. Not dating someone because they are gluten free seems clearly ableist. If you were living together you might have to some serious considerations. But just dating. Not cool.
I see it as acknowledging incompatibility based on a reasonable preference. Dating is by nature exclusionary. Nobody has a right to someone's time or attention in this context.
There's no reason why you can't date someone who's gluten-free unless they can't be around gluten at all. So it's ableism. Disagreeing. There are people who have major dietary limitations due to disease or allergy and if you were to say I'm not dating you because of that that would be ableism. Root it out people just like you want to root out these gross men.
I respectfully disagree. Ableism means exclusion from basic needs in society like work or housing or healthcare. You are assuming that the person has a disability which is an assumption since many people eat gluten free as a preference. I am allergic to cats so I see it as reasonable to eliminate me from someone's dating pool if they prefer living with cats.
Well by the way allergies actually are considered a disability under the ADA in the US.
As far as dating with a cat allergy goes that's quite different. The person with the allergy may have a severe enough allergy that they can't be around people who have cats at all.
And ableism means so much more than the meager definition that you just gave it but I'm not going to argue that here. Because my disabled A doesn't have the energy. But it is sad that you don't get it. And that everybody here including the op thinks that the gluten-free block is funny. So moving on.
You are welcome to date GF men. I don't want my life limited by their dietary needs. I'm not hiring them or renting them an apartment. I can discriminate on the basis of any number of protected classes for my own reasons: age, weight, height, health, religion, sexual preference and yes, dietary needs.
Oh wow aren't you a great person. That's twisted I'm sorry. You can have personal choices but discrimination is a whole other thing. And you're literally admitting to discrimination. Not cool!
I'm autistic, ADHD and have fibromyalgia. I don't want to date anyone who doesn't want to date an autistic ADHD person with fibromyalgia. Why would I want that!? I'm awesome but I'm also very niche 💁♀️ And why would any GF person want to date someone who bakes but doesn't want to bake gluten free!? AND even GF folks agree that GF food is rubbish! 🤣🤷♀️
I'm in an very discriminated, very stigmatized demographic and if you discriminate against me in housing, employment etc, that's 100% wrong. Dating, however is in and of its self a discriminatory process. It's literally a process of rejecting anything and everything you can't live with until you find someone you can live with. That's the entire activity!! (Well, unless you're looking for hook ups etc but we've established that's not the focus of BHDM).
See the problem is the word you're using discriminating or discrimination when you're talking about disabilities. We all have our preferences. But you're saying you're okay discriminating against people with disabilities and you're okay with others discriminating.
That's a big problem.
But I'm done with this post. I haven't been able to figure out how to turn off comment notifications for a post so I've just unsubscribed.
Yes, the underlying assumption here is that we get to decide who to engage with in dating because we do not owe anyone our time and attention. That's why any of our preferences is fair game. To assume that all people are owed our attention is counter to the cause here.
I love this, especially the part about you “being a bitch” in a good way. I recently (2 weeks ago) went through a breakup after a 6-yr relationship and after releasing my angst and irritation, I may try to date again. The first thing I thought to write in a possible dating profile is that I am a “very, very kind bitch.” I think that should do some heavy lifting to weed out a-holes for me. 🤣
Yes! This also includes any reference to "my love language is physical touch" or I love cuddling and kissing in a man's profile. I now know that I am going to be touched, without consent, and this is their only goal in dating, even if they try to dress it up like they are looking for a relationship.
Oh god yes. So sick of the love language dudes.
Hahaha, by applying BHDM 95% of the 10% of men I am attracted to are eliminated. I have a dating drop, not even a puddle!
Yep. Tumbleweeds over here too. But better to be alone than to lower the bar.
Wise words as always, Jennie. I'd like to add 2 personal examples to augment one of your tips (*do not allow them to walk you to your car*), the importance of which may easily go underestimated.
Regardless of whether you are parked in a populated area or not (and I agree we 100% always should be), it's always important to say no to the offer to be walked to our car.
I have three times been assaulted at my car door on a first date in populated areas by a guy moving in unsolicited, grabbing me and shoving his tongue in my mouth. The first was a guy I met on a dating app (with me being parked in an area that had been populated when I arrived but that was somewhat deserted upon my return; extra scary, even though it was still daylight). The other two were men I had known informally IRL for 6 months prior to them asking me out, so my guard was down with them, which is why I let them walk me to my car (in a busy parking lot, in daylight) despite my past negative experience.
So I learned the lesson the hard way. I always walk to my car on my own now on the first date (or longer if it's truly a stranger), no matter how safe I feel or my past experience with a person if ti's someone I've known for a while IRL.
This said, letting a guy walk you to your car is also unsafe for another important reason: Your car has a license plate that is attached to your full name and home address. Even if most people (at least here in Canada, where I live) don't have access to the license plate database, some do and, if they are predatory, are not likely to announce that fact to you.
Ugh, I'm so sorry you've had these experiences. 😢
I am so sorry you experienced this. How horrible.
Thanks for posting this.
For me, it also opens a debate I’ve been longing to see, but I know wouldn’t happen in Facebook. I hope it can happen here.
I’m learning tons from BHDM and RIRL, but I’m not 100% aligned as I’m NOT looking for a long-term monogamous relationship. Fresh out of a divorce, I’m looking forward to independence and ideally NOT sharing my lovely clean home with a man.
I’m trying to apply BDHM principles but am more welcoming of early conversations about sex.
Conversations including sex can be rhetorically interesting in their own right. I bet we could easily find rhetorical patterns which would help us B2B the red flags without burning all of them under a carpet bomb. (And yes, I do think most would still get burned).
I’m just hopeful that ethical casual relationships ARE possible.
I still find it very helpful to be in the group, and for clarity, I have no complaints about Jenny’s focus not matching my exact relationship ideals 😂
I'm so glad you're here, and so glad you're finding the content useful! For the record, I have no moral/ethical qualms with relationship styles that aren't long-term monogamy; they're simply not the focus of my method. No one can be all things to all people, and I stay in my lane according to end game because otherwise the whole message loses focus and becomes muddied. I present with clear guidelines, but in actual practice I think everyone should take a salad bar approach--- take what you like, leave what you don't (also now wondering if salad bar references are obsolete post-pandemic, lol).
Absolutely! I’m so grateful for your method and definitely taking the salad bar approach here.
I'm on board with you Alison, I think. However, I've found that it's impossible to create a casual situation with a man that's to my liking. Everyone I've tried this with lately, still see me only as an object, and are incapable of respecting me, being honest & kind, or able to be friends.
I’ll be honest - I’m struggling too. Going to try some more ‘niche’ sites. I suspect eventually, if ever, I’ll meet someone in the wild. The apps are grim.
Do you have any male friends you could convert? I've had much better luck that way :)
Agree. What I've found is that they want FWB, but if YOU want it, they judge you for it.
Women aren't supposed to be ok with no strings attached lol.
Thank you for responding Jenny. This truly meant so much to me and helped me realize I didn't think it's ok to have boundaries or be seen as a bitch. I actually stopped dating, hanging out with friends, going outside... as these men took every shred of interest, eye contact, or polite smile as an invitation to take advantage of me. I felt powerless. After quiting dating I noticed it in my former male dominated workplace. I tried proving myself, fitting in, dressing masculine, being "one of the guys". It snowballed into a coworker harassing me and stalking me with the managers support and encouragement. I kept saying NO, I'm going to court this week for a protection order renewal a year later to say NO again. Thank you for the encouragement and support. Thank you for letting me know I'm not alone and it's not my fault. Thank you for giving me hope that they all aren't like this and I might have a future with a happy relationship someday. Thank you for letting me know that having boundaries will attract a loving person, not scare them away. ❤️
Side Note: I wasn't feeling well and unfriended a guy I've been chatting with for a few years who keeps inviting me to his survival classes where he encourages women to buy knives. I yelled at him for asking me to go hiking and check out caves together. I was sick and confused if he wanted a date and didn't handle it nicely. Because we have mutual friends I wrote him this week and apologized for being a jerk and offered to go platonicly. He said he understood and wants to check out the caves before we get into rainy season. I don't know if he's a needle and I'm still working on communicating my boundaries but I just wanted to share with any ladies struggling with this that it does feel good to be accepted for your boundaries so much more than it ever did being accepted for being pretty or the multitude of superficial things some guys tell us.
Thank you so much for writing, Tiffany 💙. I love this sentence and want to amplify it: "It does feel good to be accepted for your boundaries so much more than it ever did being accepted for being pretty or the multitude of superficial things some guys tell us." Amen. I hope things take an upturn for you . . . actually, I can already tell by your words that they're going to because you're clearly seeing clearly through a lot of toxic bullsh*t that was getting in the way (as it gets in the way for all of us. We're all working together now to call it out and bust it up so that we don't have to be trapped by it).
Aah! lol! I laughed SO hard at your blocking someone who was gluten-freeee!
Thank you for this helpful article - the triangle is particularly awesome sauce. I wish I'd had it back when I was on the dating apps (left them 2 years ago and never looked back). Thank you also for the pragmatism here - this patriarchal world is very unhelpful toward women and we've got to take action to help ourselves.
Oh, about the male gaze-repelling personal adornment - a million times YES to this!!! I have a designated part of my wardrobe that is intentionally hideous: ill-fitting, unflattering and just plain bleh. I joyfully wear this crazy sh*t when I go to Home Depot or other man-heavy stores. The hideous attire and sloppy ponytail works wonders to keep the staring and body scans away!
Ha! I taught in an all-male max-security prison last year, and the guidelines for what women are allowed to wear in there are STRICT (nobody cares about gender progressiveness or personal expression in a max security prison), so I too have a significant wardrobe of decidedly non-sexy, non-attractive clothing!
Dr. Young, WOW! That environment sounds intense! P.S. 3 more cheers for not cute attire!
FELICES Y GRACIAS
I could see blocking someone who is vegan. I eat meat and cook that way and don’t want to have to change it . It’s a personal choice of who you might want to have in a long term relationship your life. The only thing they are being deprived of is me.
I block anyone who is vegan because or anyone who’s comments go against my value that all bodies are good bodies and food has no moral value.
From an article discussing psychologist Jesse Beting’s book titled “Perv: The Sexual Deviant in All of Us” — in 1948, … Alfred Kinsey published Sexual Behavior in the Human Male. In Perv, Bering notes that Kinsey's research revealed that “75 percent of adult American males were technically ‘sex deviants’ according to the mental health criteria at the time.”
I doubt that percentage has gone down, although the criteria may have changed.
IIRC, he used a sample that was heavily biased toward the prison population for his studies, though. At any rate, I know that there were ethical issues with the subjects he chose for his study, who were not representative of the general population.
I came across an article published in 2022 about deviance. Very good read.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00224499.2022.2109568#abstract
Such good advice! Thank you so much!
Excellent advice; as ever Jenny ❤️
This is great, thank you. Jennie I want to share that on those great Jimmy on Relationships videos where he poses as the feminine partner and wears the wig, I'm always stricken by how confident "she" is...because most women have been acculturated to, or hurt/invalidated to the point of, shrinking or being unsure around men, especially men they're in a relationship with. I thought you might find it interesting as well.
Excellent point -- yes, I definitely find this interesting! That's a fascinating gender study in itself, what you're bringing up here.
My "dating coach" (a co-worker 15 years younger) than me told me, "I like to kind of take the piss out of them right off the bat."
I was a naive 47 year old baby dater who had been with my late husband since I was 18.
I didn't understand, "Why would you be mean?"
I quickly got it. It's not "mean" to be, as Jennie says, kind of a bitch. It's an essential strat to weed out the unworthy.
Agreed. Being a bitch has nothing to do with being mean. Being a bitch means having boundaries, standing on your own, and acting in your own best interest. All good things 🥰
I did the same thing, it's such a good litmus test and weeds them right out. In addition to saying no to things, asking for them to consider your own idea ("i don't really like those kinds of movies, can we try this other one?"). If they aren't kind, flexible, warm, and supportive right away it's a block :)
Totally. I like to tease and give them a bit of a hard time.
The gluten free part cracked me up! Yes, I’d block that too for different reasons. (You might be bitchy, not! But I’m a hypocrite bc I actually have a gluten sensitivity!) It’s a signal to me that the man will be particular land I just don’t want that. Same with vegans. Maybe I’m wrong, but stuff like that is a conversation, not a declaration on a profile.
This is great.
Exception to the gluten free. Not dating someone because they are gluten free seems clearly ableist. If you were living together you might have to some serious considerations. But just dating. Not cool.
I see it as acknowledging incompatibility based on a reasonable preference. Dating is by nature exclusionary. Nobody has a right to someone's time or attention in this context.
There's no reason why you can't date someone who's gluten-free unless they can't be around gluten at all. So it's ableism. Disagreeing. There are people who have major dietary limitations due to disease or allergy and if you were to say I'm not dating you because of that that would be ableism. Root it out people just like you want to root out these gross men.
I respectfully disagree. Ableism means exclusion from basic needs in society like work or housing or healthcare. You are assuming that the person has a disability which is an assumption since many people eat gluten free as a preference. I am allergic to cats so I see it as reasonable to eliminate me from someone's dating pool if they prefer living with cats.
Well by the way allergies actually are considered a disability under the ADA in the US.
As far as dating with a cat allergy goes that's quite different. The person with the allergy may have a severe enough allergy that they can't be around people who have cats at all.
And ableism means so much more than the meager definition that you just gave it but I'm not going to argue that here. Because my disabled A doesn't have the energy. But it is sad that you don't get it. And that everybody here including the op thinks that the gluten-free block is funny. So moving on.
I have been blocked due to my anaphylaxis to shellfish I completely agree with this choice as it is dangerous as is coeliac disease
You are welcome to date GF men. I don't want my life limited by their dietary needs. I'm not hiring them or renting them an apartment. I can discriminate on the basis of any number of protected classes for my own reasons: age, weight, height, health, religion, sexual preference and yes, dietary needs.
Oh wow aren't you a great person. That's twisted I'm sorry. You can have personal choices but discrimination is a whole other thing. And you're literally admitting to discrimination. Not cool!
Yes I am and I'm TOTALLY OK with potential romantic partners discriminating against me for all of those things to.
I'm autistic, ADHD and have fibromyalgia. I don't want to date anyone who doesn't want to date an autistic ADHD person with fibromyalgia. Why would I want that!? I'm awesome but I'm also very niche 💁♀️ And why would any GF person want to date someone who bakes but doesn't want to bake gluten free!? AND even GF folks agree that GF food is rubbish! 🤣🤷♀️
I'm in an very discriminated, very stigmatized demographic and if you discriminate against me in housing, employment etc, that's 100% wrong. Dating, however is in and of its self a discriminatory process. It's literally a process of rejecting anything and everything you can't live with until you find someone you can live with. That's the entire activity!! (Well, unless you're looking for hook ups etc but we've established that's not the focus of BHDM).
See the problem is the word you're using discriminating or discrimination when you're talking about disabilities. We all have our preferences. But you're saying you're okay discriminating against people with disabilities and you're okay with others discriminating.
That's a big problem.
But I'm done with this post. I haven't been able to figure out how to turn off comment notifications for a post so I've just unsubscribed.
Disabilities are just one of many protected classes for who it it both illegal and not cool to discriminate against in employment, housing, etc
It is absolutely cool to discriminate against ANYONE for ANYTHING when it comes to intimate relationships.
Everyone has a right to equality in employment, housing, marriage, etc. No one has a right to my time and attention. ,
Yes, the underlying assumption here is that we get to decide who to engage with in dating because we do not owe anyone our time and attention. That's why any of our preferences is fair game. To assume that all people are owed our attention is counter to the cause here.
Thank you for sharing this wealth of knowledge for me to read. I’m going to practice this and see how it goes for me.
I love this, especially the part about you “being a bitch” in a good way. I recently (2 weeks ago) went through a breakup after a 6-yr relationship and after releasing my angst and irritation, I may try to date again. The first thing I thought to write in a possible dating profile is that I am a “very, very kind bitch.” I think that should do some heavy lifting to weed out a-holes for me. 🤣